The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
bdog
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby bdog » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Had the thought Huck is Steve Jobs and Wags is Bill Gates in this debate.

Detritus
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:07 pm

My thought was that this argument is to debate as a tubal ligation is to childbirth.

Just to stay within the prevailing metaphorical territory.

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:37 pm

Huckleby wrote:Prof. Wagstaff believes that science is converging on truth.
Another gross misrepresentation of my view (and of science, in general.) Science does not hand down "absolute truth" it always deals in provisional truth. All science can ever hope to do is provide the best possible explanation based on available evidence. Almost assuredly, there will always be more unknown than known.
Huckleby wrote: I believe that we have no idea, it could all be a cosmic joke.
I don't dismiss such a theory, I merely suggest that if true, the God who's telling the joke is hardly worthy of reverence. What possible reason could there be for worshiping a lying trickster?
Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote:I've challenged you to move beyond the obvious, take a fresh perspective.

No, what you consider a "fresh perspective" is just the same old tired arguments. You've presented nothing new.

You don't understand what I am suggesting...

Yeah, you're way too deep for me. :roll:
I know exactly what you're suggesting: Maybe there are things undiscoverable by science. Of course that's true, but it doesn't get us anywhere. Defaulting to the supernatural is just throwing up your hands and giving up on the search for real information. Nothing can be gained from an explanation of "we'll never understand" so it's a dead-end line of inquiry. And while you may then suggest we use a non-scientific method to illuminate these topics, I would then ask you to provide an example of this method producing results. What "discoveries" have been made by religious contemplation?
Huckleby wrote:You are thinking so narrowly.
Sez the guy who argues that there are things we'll simply never understand.

It's beyond incomprehensible how you can continue to label as "narrow-minded" the view that investigation of the unknown is a worthy goal.
Huckleby wrote:Maybe you are a puppet in the mind of some being.
This, for example, is such a tired old philosophic canard that the fact you even mention it proves my contention that you have very little history grappling with these questions. Of course this is possible, but it renders any attempts at understanding the universe -- either scientifically or theologically -- meaningless. A brain in a vat has no more need of God than of science as its entire existence is one of pure deception. If nothing is real, surely nothing matters.
Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:When you say "aspects of life and the universe that can not be understood by logic & measurable evidence" what, besides some sort of God-concept, would you grant such status to?
A concept outside our imagination.
A standard response from someone clearly unfamiliar with the history of science. A pretty sizable chunk of our modern scientific knowledge is in areas previously considered "outside our imagination". Invisible rays that allow us to see bones inside bodies? Why, that's impossible! Diseases are caused by animals too small to be seen? Preposterous nonsense! Light always travels at the same speed, regardless of its source or the speed of its observer? Why, that's obvious crazy talk! Why can't you see that the "outside our imagination" argument is the God-of-the-gaps argument!

Science is rife with examples of people proposing imaginative solutions to seemingly intractable problems. Science is not, as you portray it, some monolithic belief system carved in stone and unwilling to accommodate new discoveries (that's religion). Science is the investigation of the unknown. We never know what we're gonna find til we go looking and we never know if any particular avenue of research will lead to an answer (or, more likely, just more questions.) Religion, on the other hand, already has the answer: God (or whatever). It's silliness of the highest order to suggest the narrow-minded view is the one which ignores unfounded assumptions in lieu of actual investigation of the unknown.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:54 pm

Huckleby wrote:What I am trying to argue is somewhat subtle. Maybe logic & evidence is like Newtonian mechanics. It isn't "wrong", but it is incomplete. There may be aspects of life and the universe that can not be understood by logic & measurable evidence.

What puzzles me is why, if that's your argument, that you're behaving as though Catholicism is the one true religion.

Since there are so many religions out there, and so many, many sets of spiritual beliefs, why are you behaving as though Catholics have a better set of spiritual beliefs than all the others?

There are indeed aspects of the universe that can't be understood. There is also an infinite number of spiritual explanations for them. What is it about the Catholics that makes theirs better?

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:03 pm

Seems like someone just had their first bong hit and finished the first week of comparative religion class.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:57 pm

rabble wrote:
Huckleby wrote:What I am trying to argue is somewhat subtle. Maybe logic & evidence is like Newtonian mechanics. It isn't "wrong", but it is incomplete. There may be aspects of life and the universe that can not be understood by logic & measurable evidence.

What puzzles me is why, if that's your argument, that you're behaving as though Catholicism is the one true religion.
I don't know where that came from.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:12 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote:
Huckleby wrote:What I am trying to argue is somewhat subtle. Maybe logic & evidence is like Newtonian mechanics. It isn't "wrong", but it is incomplete. There may be aspects of life and the universe that can not be understood by logic & measurable evidence.

What puzzles me is why, if that's your argument, that you're behaving as though Catholicism is the one true religion.
I don't know where that came from.

Are you really that disingenuous or are you terminally obtuse?

I haven't seen you posting about the poor Christian Scientists, who believe that prayer is the answer in preserving health and have no faith in modern medicine. I guess that makes them exempt from all federal mandates.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:24 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Prof. Wagstaff believes that science is converging on truth.
Another gross misrepresentation of my view (and of science, in general.)
Uhh, no. When I first suggested that science may not be converging on truth, you reject the assertion completely.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: What possible reason could there be for worshiping a lying trickster?
I have expressed no opinions about existence of gods

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Yeah, you're way too deep for me. :roll:
I know exactly what you're suggesting: Maybe there are things undiscoverable by science. Of course that's true, but it doesn't get us anywhere. Defaulting to the supernatural is just throwing up your hands and giving up on the search for real information..
You're missing the point. It is your rejection of the supernatural, and absolute belief in scientific method that constitutes your religion.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:It's beyond incomprehensible how you can continue to label as "narrow-minded" the view that investigation of the unknown is a worthy goal.
you are just throwing shit up against the wall. You are indeed narrow minded, but not because you support exploration of unknown.


Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Maybe you are a puppet in the mind of some being.
This, for example, is such a tired old philosophic canard that the fact you even mention it proves my contention that you have very little history grappling with these questions.
cheap

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Science is not, as you portray it, some monolithic belief system carved in stone and unwilling to accommodate new discoveries (that's religion).
Feel free to give your speeches, but leave me out of it. I don't know who you are arguing with.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:34 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I haven't seen you posting about the poor Christian Scientists, who believe that prayer is the answer in preserving health and have no faith in modern medicine. I guess that makes them exempt from all federal mandates.


The Christian Scientist position you cite is indefensible.

I have no particular affinity for catholicism, Catholics happen to be the subject of much of this discussion thread, they are in news. I have tried to explain the positions of the church and many catholics, as I see them, and have acknowledged degrees of validity to their positions.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:37 pm

That, or you are a recovering Catholic whose recovery is suspect.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:51 pm

Words and phrases Huckleby still doesn't know the meaning of (or never did):

1. science
2. religion
3. faith
4. supernatural
5. the scientific method
6. rejection
7. absolute
8. truth
9. opinion
10. narrow-minded

And those are just in his last response to me.

I think I'll finish this discussion with Stanley, my cat. He's as easily distracted as Huckleby, but his arguments are more persuasive (I'm a sucker for the head butt.) Or maybe I should do Huckleby's part and then Stan could be Carl Reiner.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:52 pm

nah, I'll defend any group that I see is getting a raw deal.

I am mostly against the Catholic church on the recent controversies, but they did have a legitimate point in the initial objections.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:14 pm

Then there are the Scientologolists and their strong objection to psychiatric medicine. Should they be exempt from federal mandates on mental health coverage?

So far Huck, you have only been defending the Catholic viewpoint.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:41 pm

Huckleby wrote:
WestSideYuppie wrote:
Huckleby wrote:There may be many dimensions of perception than we will never be able to imagine.


There certainly may be. But it's my observation that when this notion is raised as an argument in debates about earthly topics, it is invariably an empty argument.


I assume by "earthly topics" you mean, say, LPs versus CDs. I was not suspecting that vinyl has a soul.


That's progress. Now think about how to that might relate to why some people don't take seriously the idea of an embryo or sperm having a soul.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:38 pm

WestSideYuppie wrote:That's progress. Now think about how to that might relate to why some people don't take seriously the idea of an embryo or sperm having a soul.

I am a pro-choice athiest.

I won't suggest that you respect people who believe that life begins at conception, because like Prof Wagstaff, you know the Truth, your faith is the one true faith.


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