The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

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peripat
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby peripat » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:36 pm

You do realize this whole stupid debate leads to an equally stupid argument about whether animals have souls and will ultimately lead to a society where hunting or eating meat are perversions, right?

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby jman111 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:41 pm

peripat wrote:...whether animals have souls...
Next thing ya know, they'll be marrying clocks and tables.

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:45 pm

Huckleby wrote:you are limiting the universe to that which can be measured through scientific method, plus the possibity of future scientific discoveries.

Huh? What is "limiting" about saying there is much to know, so let's keep looking? And the "possibility of future scientific discoveries" encompasses... well... pretty much everything, so I guess I'm baffled what you think is limiting about that as well.

Being narrow-minded implies you are not open to new ideas, but I can't imagine on what you'd base a claim that I am not. The ideas you've been defending are not new nor have I refused to accept them before examining them. As I keep pointing out, I've spent decades studying and grappling with such issues. I have not rejected the religious view of the universe based on a priori beliefs, I have rejected it based on evidence. And that's the issue here. It's what differentiates my worldview from a religious one. It's become increasingly clear that you are the one who cannot see things from different perspectives. Why else your desperate need to define everything in relation to religion? Why are you so close-minded that you reject outright the very notion that a non-religious outlook on life and the universe can even exist?

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:54 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:[Huh? What is "limiting" about saying there is much to know, so let's keep looking? And the "possibility of future scientific discoveries" encompasses... well... pretty much everything, so I guess I'm baffled what you think is limiting about that as well.

There may be aspects of universe undiscernible by scientific method, ever.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:23 pm

Huckleby wrote:There may be aspects of universe undiscernible by scientific method, ever.
Maybe. In regards to this topic, surely you don't believe biology is one them? But in a more general sense, if we stop searching, we'll certainly discern much less. It's those who assume there are things we can't know -- so they just make shit up instead -- that are close-minded. There's a whole lotta shit we wouldn't know today if everybody had listened to those who wanted others to just accept what they were saying on faith.

Huckleby wrote:There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Backatcha.
I'll believe your sincerity about wanting others to keep an open mind when you open yours wide enough to admit the very simple concept that not all beliefs are religious.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:38 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: admit the very simple concept that not all beliefs are religious.

I never argued that all beliefs are religious.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:43 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote: admit the very simple concept that not all beliefs are religious.

I never argued that all beliefs are religious.
I know.

I just didn't want to have to type "all beliefs about the nature of life or other possibly unknowable mysteries of the universe" or whatever. But now I've had to go and do it anyway. Oh well. Normally I get criticized for my wordiness and lack of concision (see, like that.) Sadly, this demonstrates why I don't usually go the brevity route.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:37 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:[Huh? What is "limiting" about saying there is much to know, so let's keep looking? And the "possibility of future scientific discoveries" encompasses... well... pretty much everything, so I guess I'm baffled what you think is limiting about that as well.

There may be aspects of universe undiscernible by scientific method, ever.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


Yes, and I already cited one: The exact number of crabs in the ocean right now. Granted, that was a bit sarcastic, but it illustrates the point that science has no problem with the limits of human knowledge. Indeed, most scientific theories are generalizations that cannot be exhaustively tested. Our need to generalize in order to comprehend is an admission that we can't know everything. God wouldn't need theories.

Going further, we live in a pluralistic society, and plenty of people are engaged in pursuits other than scientific inquiry. Many scientists are religious. Scientists are aware of, support, and even participate in these pursuits, such as literature, music, the arts, and so forth. There are secular fields that challenge the validity of the scientific method, such as philosophy, and fields that separate themselves completely from any concern about reality, such as some branches of mathematics. And even if we are skeptical about those pursuits, we are certainly not oblivious to them.

Most scientists don't have a problem with any of this. What's the problem?

ilikebeans
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby ilikebeans » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:35 pm

Wondermark, in a series of strips, recently explored the brand-spankin'-new theory of "maltheism", whereby "everything bad is caused by a deity who wishes only to cause us pain, and everything good is either luck or our own doing."

Happy snow storm, suckas!

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby snoqueen » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:35 pm

Thanks for the link -- I've missed that guy.

Or maybe I should say thanks for taking one little step toward defeating the universal entropy-force that made me lose track of a good artist.

Who knew? There's more:

Maltheism further believes that God is dependent on the worship and adoration of human beings for his existence, and that if he is deprived of humanity's worship, he will wither up and die, leaving humanity better off. Therefore, maltheism seeks to encourage people of all theophilic religions to stop worshipping God in any form, since worshipping an evil God is viewed as treason against the human race.


http://www.fact-index.com/m/ma/maltheism.html

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:00 am

Seems that Wisconsin required health insurance companies to cover birth control a couple years ago and that the Madison diocese went along with that mandate.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:00 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Seems that Wisconsin required health insurance companies to cover birth control a couple years ago and that the Madison diocese went along with that mandate.

Individual Catholics, and evidently local Catholic dioceses often show flexibility, a.k.a. ignore the Vatican.

The issue with the federal mandate was that it was seen as a heavy-handed bullying/rebuke of the Catholic faith. That was the issue with Catholics, even liberal Catholics.

Liberals speak loosely of the Catholic church seeking to impose its values on society. That is an overstatement and villification. (With the narrow exception of church attempts to control employees.) The Church is not that influential on American government. An honest person has to admit that the contraceptive mandate was an attempt to impose majority values on the Catholic Church against their faith. The imposing goes equally both ways.

Here is a sermon (homily) by a priest in Indiana that is being widely circulated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltTd81XpDnc
The good Father claims that the Federal government is effectively shutting down the CAtholic Church's ability to conduct its mission, that Obamacare funds abortions, and that it would be better for the CAtholic church to shutdown than to contribute money towards killing children. He takes to task parishioners who voted for Obama.
In short, the guy is an asshat.
But it is worth listening to, the sermon is getting a large response. This is a reflection of the sincere feelings of victimization among Catholics.

In some ways, many liberals are just as unfair and harmful as this hothead priest. Perhaps a conflict is inevitable, but the public relations war is won by being conciliatory and respectful. I think the Obama admin has done their best, after initial fumbling.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:10 pm

WestSideYuppie wrote:Most scientists don't have a problem with any of this. What's the problem?


I never criticized scientists or science. I am attempting to show that those who believe absolutely in the scientifically verifiable are themselves taking on many of the characteristics of the religous.

The hangup seems to be over the definitions of science and religion. I am asking people to question the definitions, think if there isn't more overlap there than inititally meets the eye, am met with stubborn defensiveness.

The definition of marriage is a sanctioned relationship between "one man, one woman." Well, OK, but are longterm relations between same-sex couples marriages in most respects? The narrow-minded just come back with the definition argument.

Your classic 1968 hippie thought himself/herself a pure free spirit, shunning conventions. But wait a sec, there aren't any crew-cuts in your tribe. Hasn't the long hair and beads effectively become just a new uniform? Well, since the sloppy dress does not fit usual definition of "uniform", there may be defensiveness, unwillingess to stand back and take fresh look.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:17 pm

Huckleby wrote:The issue with the federal mandate was that it was seen as a heavy-handed bullying/rebuke of the Catholic faith. That was the issue with Catholics, even liberal Catholics.

Liberals speak loosely of the Catholic church seeking to impose its values on society. That is an overstatement and villification.

You keep on saying that, but it defies reality. Go back and reread the opening post, since your memory seems to be very short and very selective. What is the difference between the federal mandate and the mandates already imposed by 28 states, including Wisconsin?

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:22 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:What is the difference between the federal mandate and the mandates already imposed by 28 states, including Wisconsin?


The 28 states had (I think without exception) broader excemptions.

I believe Catholics saw a federal mandate as more powerful, public and threatening - what comes next? There is much more offense taken to federal actions, many Americans have an anti-fed streak.

I think this all is more about principle & dignity than substance.


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