The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:54 am

Didn't want to start a new thread, so I'll put this here:

Abortion debate may hit Wisconsin roadways

Driving with an anti-abortion message is a great way to drive the anti-abortion message.

At least according to Rep. Andre Jacque, R-Bellevue, who has introduced legislation that would allow Wisconsin motorists the option of paying extra for a "Choose Life" license plate.

The freshman lawmaker says the plate he is proposing is no different than the dozens of other specialty plates currently available, including ones that celebrate the Packers, Harley Davidson or the Freemasons.

But it’s not just the message he is after. His bill would have the extra money that people pay for the specialty plate go to an organization, Choose Life Wisconsin, a chapter of the national group Choose Life America, which began the push for such license plates 15 years ago in Florida.

Detritus
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:04 am

And the Republicans' laser-like focus on jobs continues unabated....

Stella_Guru
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Stella_Guru » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:29 am

Born again, neo-con President Obama plays the game much better than anyone else creating smoke screens around outlier issues like contraception and the debate over the role of religion and government. Nothing will be said about the dangers of a billion dollar presidential campaign, the thievery at the top, imperialist drone warfare, give-aways to Wall St., austerity for the 99% and tax breaks for the rich. Outrage will be misplaced and the defender of corporate rule will once again get elected.

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:50 pm

Huckleby wrote:I define your non-religion as a religion (of sorts) because your "evidence", which you claim stands apart and above faith, really is faith-based.
So now my "religion" is just a "religion (of sorts)"? Trying to back away from you own position? It would be wise for you to do so, as it is untenable, but I ain't holding my breath.
Huckleby wrote: Your rules of evidence are tenets
Huh? Now you want to redefine "evidence"? My rules of evidence are the rules of evidence!
Huckleby wrote:...[you] declare unmeasurable ways of seeking truth to be invalid.
I've never done any such thing. I have suggested that actual evidence should carry more weight than mere belief and I stand by that given the evidence. The history of the world makes it very clear that evidence-based methods of inquiry produce results and correct answers while belief-based methods have a much less successful track record. This hardly means religious beliefs serve no purpose, simply that in areas where belief intersects evidence, it's wise to default to the evidence. And as I've said before, you'd likely agree with this statement if we were discussing anything but (a very particular) religious belief.
Huckleby wrote: This is a system of belief, and a narrowing one.
I suppose you can characterize "values evidence over made-up-shit" as a belief, but it's not a religious one because it is based on evidence! I guess it's fine if you choose to reject that belief -- it won't make it any less true -- but that hardly transforms it into something it's not.

And I'll never be able to grasp how examining the evidence before reaching a conclusion is narrow-minded, but making a priori assumptions is not. I am similarly confused how my active interest in science -- which causes me to seek out books and articles about new discoveries, learn about new ideas, and find out where new research has disproved previously held beliefs -- paints me so in your eyes. I would argue what's narrow-minded is ignoring modern research in favor of preserving beliefs formulated thousands of years ago and enshrined in a book which never gets corrected.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:11 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:And I'll never be able to grasp how examining the evidence before reaching a conclusion is narrow-minded, but making a priori assumptions is not. I am similarly confused how my active interest in science -- which causes me to seek out books and articles about new discoveries, learn about new ideas, and find out where new research has disproved previously held beliefs -- paints me so in your eyes. I would argue what's narrow-minded is ignoring modern research in favor of preserving beliefs formulated thousands of years ago and enshrined in a book which never gets corrected.


I subscribe to your religion, so I would be the last person to suggest that it is inferior.

The aternatives to your way of thinking do not all ignore modern research in favor of beliefs enshrined in old books. But others might have a broader conception of what constitutes "evidence", for instance intuition. Some might find evidence of a God in nature.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:32 pm

Huckleby wrote:others might have a broader conception of what constitutes "evidence", for instance intuition.
Intuition can certainly be evidence for something, but if it conflicts with actual facts, surely you must agree it should be discarded. Because the problem with intuition is it's been proven time and again to be absolutely wrong about the true nature of the universe. Any self-proclaimed student of physics surely knows that.
Huckleby wrote:Some might find evidence of a God in nature.
Are they finding evidence or are they imagining it? Have people found evidence for Atlantis, or do they just imagine that they have?

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby GOD » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:47 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote:others might have a broader conception of what constitutes "evidence", for instance intuition.
Intuition can certainly be evidence for something, but if it conflicts with actual facts, surely you must agree it should be discarded. Because the problem with intuition is it's been proven time and again to be absolutely wrong about the true nature of the universe. Any self-proclaimed student of physics surely knows that.
Huckleby wrote:Some might find evidence of a God in nature.
Are they finding evidence or are they imagining it? Have people found evidence for Atlantis, or do they just imagine that they have?


IS NOT MY VERY PRESENCE IN THIS THREAD THE GREATEST EVIDENCE OF ALL?

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:49 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: Because the problem with intuition is [i]it's been proven time and again to be absolutely wrong about the true nature of the universe.

The true universe might be something COMPLETELY different from what you expect, science may not be converging on anything at all, it could just be a giant fake out. Clues sensed by, say, mystics, or starfish, might be more meaningful. Or, maybe you are right, and the only way to understand the sun is to stare directly at it.

Stick by your religion of science, it is a fine religion that I too put much trust in.

I say keep an open mind, and don't eat the brown acid.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby GOD » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:07 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote: Because the problem with intuition is [i]it's been proven time and again to be absolutely wrong about the true nature of the universe.

The true universe might be something COMPLETELY different from what you expect, science may not be converging on anything at all, it could just be a giant fake out. Clues sensed by, say, mystics, or starfish, might be more meaningful. Or, maybe you are right, and the only way to understand the sun is to stare directly at it.


CHRIST HUCKLEBY, I DID NOT INVENT SCIENCE FOR IT TO BE IGNORED IN FAVOR OF STARFISH.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby duckspeak » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:18 pm

Huckleby wrote:Prof. Wagstaff,
I define your non-religion as a religion


"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:25 pm

Huckleby wrote:The universe might be something COMPLETELY different from what you expect
This isn't even probably true. It is true.
Again, any student of physics knows this.
Huckleby wrote: science may not be converging on anything at all, it could just be a giant fake out.
This is obvious poppycock. Science works. It makes accurate predictions and produces results. So either it's just a really freaky coincidence, or God is such an evil, twisted motherfucker that he's literally just fucking with us. While possible that such a God exists, I can think of no reason why anyone should worship or venerate such a creature. Can you?
Huckleby wrote:Clues sensed by, say, mystics, or starfish, might be more meaningful.
How? Because unless you explain, this is just Hallmark-level sophistry.
Huckleby wrote:Or, maybe you are right, and the only way to understand the sun is to stare directly at it.
I don't even know what you mean by this. Just as science has taught us not to trust our intuition, it's demonstrated time and again that our senses cannot be trusted, either. The universe is mysterious. That's why we should keep studying it with every tool at our disposal, as opposed to assigning meaning to it by re-imaging and revising ancient myths.
Huckleby wrote:Stick by your religion of science, it is a fine religion that I too put much trust in.
{Sigh}
Science isn't a religion. It is a method of investigating nature. It is based on evidence, so it does not require faith. It makes no absolute declarations and gives no instructions on how we should live. I can't think of a single way in which it's like a religion. Can you?
Huckleby wrote:I say keep an open mind...
You say it to some, but apparently not to those who most need to hear it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go mail one-tenth of my income to the local Temple of Science or I won't get to evolve...

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:33 pm

GOD wrote: CHRIST HUCKLEBY, I DID NOT INVENT SCIENCE FOR IT TO BE IGNORED IN FAVOR OF STARFISH.


yes, but you did not wish for Science to worshipped as a false God either

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:35 pm

false God


Is there any other kind?

GOD
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby GOD » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:39 pm

Huckleby wrote:
GOD wrote: CHRIST HUCKLEBY, I DID NOT INVENT SCIENCE FOR IT TO BE IGNORED IN FAVOR OF STARFISH.


yes, but you did not wish for Science to worshipped as a false God either


NO MAN KNOWS MY INTENT, PARTICULARLY ONE WHO EQUIVOCATES SCIENCE WITH RELIGION. IF YOU DON'T SEND ME A VIRGIN BY SUNDOWN TO APPEASE ME, THERE WILL LITERALLY BE HELL TO PAY.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/02/massive-solar-flare/

Image

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:10 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote: science may not be converging on anything at all, it could just be a giant fake out.
This is obvious poppycock. Science works. It makes accurate predictions and produces results.

Yes, it is very practical tool for dealing with measureable world. Science good.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote:I say keep an open mind...
You say it to some, but apparently not to those who most need to hear it.

No, you are limiting the universe to that which can be measured through scientific method, plus the possibity of future scientific discoveries. That is narrow minded, much like the tunnel vision of the fundamentalist Imam.


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