The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

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Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:57 pm

WestSideYuppie wrote:I'm glad you realize that I was right. Look, you tried to correct me on the use of a term whose definition you were obstinately in the dark about.

no, you were wrong in your use of that term. They were not insults directed at an individual, and they were certainly not insults made in lieu of an argument.

nice try. thank you for playing.

scratch
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby scratch » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:54 am

Huckleby wrote:
DCB wrote:
Huckleby wrote: I never expressed an opinion on when life begins, other than saying I don't know, and that if life is precious, then assuming life begins at conception seems prudent choice.

Is it 'prudent' to ignore the medical,emotional, and financial wellbeing of adult women?

Well, you mention three very different issues there, and many people would have different answers to each.
I am simply expressing that the life-at-conception position makes sense, the pro-life argument carries weight. We were talking about "when life begins", not making a final judgement whether abortion should be legal.


But you seem to agree that the point at which a fetus becomes a person or acquires a soul is, at least so far, unknowable in a comprehensive way. It is knowable that a pregnant woman is a person and, if you believe in souls, has one (assuming she hasn't sold same). So how do you argue for upholding the "right" to life of the as yet unborn child over the already existing woman? And I realize that's not necessarily what you are ultimately arguing, but how do you put the two in the same moral equation? If you err on the side of caution regarding the unborn potential person, aren't you necessarily erring against the interests of the already born woman?

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby GOD » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:27 am

THIS CONVERSATION HAS GROWN BORING. ALLOW ME SHED LIGHT ON ONE, TINY, INCONSEQUENTIAL MYSTERY:

"SOUL" IS MERELY A WONDERFUL TYPE OF MUSIC, AS PERFORMED BY THE LIKES OF OTIS REDDING AND BOBBY BYRD. IT IS ONE OF MY GREATEST CREATIONS. AN UNBORN CHILD IS INCAPABLE OF PERFORMING THIS HARD-TO-PIN-DOWN STYLE OF MUSIC.

scratch
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby scratch » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:54 pm

GOD wrote:THIS CONVERSATION HAS GROWN BORING. ALLOW ME SHED LIGHT ON ONE, TINY, INCONSEQUENTIAL MYSTERY:
"SOUL" IS MERELY A WONDERFUL TYPE OF MUSIC, AS PERFORMED BY THE LIKES OF OTIS REDDING AND BOBBY BYRD. IT IS ONE OF MY GREATEST CREATIONS. AN UNBORN CHILD IS INCAPABLE OF PERFORMING THIS HARD-TO-PIN-DOWN STYLE OF MUSIC.


But Bootsy "Star Child" Collins is a stalwart of soul music. Of course he's post-born.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:02 pm

scratch wrote:So how do you argue for upholding the "right" to life of the as yet unborn child over the already existing woman? ... aren't you necessarily erring against the interests of the already born woman?


The argument that an abortion shouldn't be done even to protect the mother's life is a tough sell in practice. If 2% of Catholics follow the church's teaching on contraception, fewer still would act on this precept.

It's really a hypothetical proposition. What's-his-name said this principle is insane, and I responded that it is not insane at all, and is in fact in-line with all of nature, where parents often imperil themselves to save offspring. (I was quoted out of context to make it look like I oppose abortion to save a woman's life.)

I can't give an answer to your question, there is none. I think the anti-abortion folks argue their abortion-never position simply as a hypothetical, to emphasize their commitment to the fetus as a human.

ps. When is the last time you read of a woman dying as result of refusing an abortion? I suppose it happens.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:26 pm

Huckleby wrote:When is the last time you read of a woman dying as result of refusing an abortion? I suppose it happens.

Google is your friend.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:28 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Huckleby wrote:When is the last time you read of a woman dying as result of refusing an abortion? I suppose it happens.

Google is your friend.
You didn't actually bother to examine any of those links, didya Hank? 'Cuz Huck's gonna have a field day with'em...

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:41 pm


Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:55 pm

Might wanna fix your latest link, Hank.

But without actually reading the article you tried linking to, my point was that the Google results you posted (with snark, no less) are mostly not stories of women who died because they refused an abortion. Pointing out that a specific one is doesn't change that fact. The majority are tales of women being murdered for not having abortions, doctors not performing abortions, articles about new abortion laws, tales of "forced abortions", and so on. Huck already admitted that it must happen occasionally, so not sure what point you think you were making.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:03 pm

Huck asked when was the last time one read about a woman dying as a result of refusing to have an abortion. My citation from last October answered his question, for her chemotherapy treatments would surely have aborted the fetus.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:11 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: My citation from last October answered his question...
I wouldn't know as your "citation" is still the wrong link.

But if the best you've got is "four months ago", I think Huck's point that it's likely a rare scenario remains valid (he did admit that it surely happens, after all.) What that point has to do with anything, I cannot say, but I consider it progress that he didn't have to redefine any terms to arrive at that conclusion.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:24 pm

Prof. Wagstaff,
I define your non-religion as a religion (of sorts) because your "evidence", which you claim stands apart and above faith, really is faith-based. Your rules of evidence are tenets, they declare unmeasurable ways of seeking truth to be invalid. This is a system of belief, and a narrowing one.

I don't expect to convince you, anymore than I would expect to convince a Muslim that Muhammed was just another mideastern holy man, or convince a Christian that Jesus was just one of hundreds of similar figures of his time.

I know you have logical answers and rebutals. But then again, the guitarist in Spinal Tap had a logical basis for saying that his amp is louder because it goes up to 11. He's just not willing to look at his logic from another perspective.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:32 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: My citation from last October answered his question, for her chemotherapy treatments would surely have aborted the fetus.


I don't agree with her decision. And I expect it is a rare choice. Where I part from you is that I don't consider her choice crazy.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:44 pm

Those choices are often done in private and without media attention. Just like the choice to abort.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:27 pm

This is a problem of how you count things. On the one hand, every woman who attempts to bring a pregnancy to term is refusing abortion, assuming the choice is not made on her behalf by somebody else. So you could count the entire maternal death rate. On the other hand, women who are offered the option of abortion during a crisis pregnancy, refuse, die, and live to tell about it, are relatively few.


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