The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

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Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:32 am

Huckleby wrote: There's been a HUGE generational shift. Look at the attitudes among general population towards gays among people over and under the age of 45. The bishops are old men. I expect the Church will change as that generation dies off.


Your patience amazes me.
Just another generation or so... I mean, what harm can another few decades do, right?

DCB
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:07 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote: There's been a HUGE generational shift. Look at the attitudes among general population towards gays among people over and under the age of 45. The bishops are old men. I expect the Church will change as that generation dies off.


Your patience amazes me.
Just another generation or so... I mean, what harm can another few decades do, right?

It took the Vatican 500 years to accept a heliocentric universe. Lets not put progress on hold for fear of offending their delicate sensibilities.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:49 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote: what harm can another few decades do, right?

your thesis that the church is actively doing great harm is not based in reality, it is a prejudice. The church has little influence in areas where its positions are archaic. You dismiss the role of the church in providing spiritual and physical comfort around the world as good deeds that could be done by someone else.

The Catholic church has a checkered history, disaterous recent past. It will take a long time before those prejudiced against it die off, just like we need the backward thinkers within the church to die off.

rabble
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:21 am

Huckleby wrote:The Catholic church has a checkered recent histor.

Checkered. I like that. So do the Promise Keepers and Glen Beck.
Huckleby wrote: It will take a long time before those dead set against it die off, just like we need the backward thinkers within the church to die off.

And the defenders who will keep defending the Church no matter what transgressions it commits, no matter how it tries to cover it up. They need to die off too.
Too bad it ain't gonna happen. The current population has plenty of all three in every living generation. The Church will continue in its current path for as long as the species exists. If those "dead set against" can't stop it, it will take over the government(s) just like it did once before.

You may have spoken to plenty of Catholics, but I think you have no idea what's going on in the heart of that religion.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:31 am

rabble wrote: If those "dead set against" can't stop it, it will take over the government(s) just like it did once before.


Image

"I have in my hand a list ...."

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:32 am

rabble wrote:You may have spoken to plenty of Catholics, but I think you have no idea what's going on in the heart of that religion.

I'm going to learn more about where things stand today.
My sense is the Catholic Church is far less powerful now, and will have to scramble to thrive, especially as it has trouble recruiting American nuns and priests.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:03 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote: If those "dead set against" can't stop it, it will take over the government(s) just like it did once before.


Image

"I have in my hand a list ...."

You photo of Tail Gunner Joe does not contract rabble's comment that governments have been under Catholic control in places like Europe and Latin America.

BTW, McCarthy was a conservative Catholic so your reply has a strong element of unintended irony.

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:46 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: You photo of Tail Gunner Joe does not contract rabble's comment that governments have been under Catholic control in places like Europe and Latin America.

Sounds like both of you are talking past tense. Except rabble hints at dark fears for the future.

I don't see the Catholics taking over any governments anywhere. The church has even lost its grip on latin america, with those dang-darn evangelicals rising.

Where do you see a Vatican conspiracy looming? Anyone? Anyone?

Personally, I am not so interested in the political stuff anyway. I ignore the pope and pope conspiracies. My interest is the local role of the Catholic church in U.S.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:10 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: You photo of Tail Gunner Joe does not contract rabble's comment that governments have been under Catholic control in places like Europe and Latin America.

Sounds like both of you are talking past tense.

Your pic of McCarthy is sixty years old. Franco's Spain, with it's fascist Catholic political philosophy, is much more recent than that.

Huckleby wrote: My interest is the local role of the Catholic church in U.S.

If right wing Catholic nut job Santorum is the GOP nominee for president, then be prepared to indulge in your interest. If he somehow gets elected president then all bets are off.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:05 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:If right wing Catholic nut job Santorum is the GOP nominee for president, then be prepared to indulge in your interest. If he somehow gets elected president then all bets are off.

Santorum's theocratic views continue:
The government should never require health care providers to fully cover the cost of prenatal testing such as amniocentesis, which can determine the possibility of Down syndrome or other problems in the fetus, Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum said Sunday.

In particular, amniocentesis "more often than not" results in abortion, said Santorum, a strident anti-abortion politician, on the CBS program "Face the Nation."


Catholicism in action.

WestSideYuppie
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:01 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote: what harm can another few decades do, right?

your thesis that the church is actively doing great harm is not based in reality, it is a prejudice. The church has little influence in areas where its positions are archaic. You dismiss the role of the church in providing spiritual and physical comfort around the world as good deeds that could be done by someone else.

The Catholic church has a checkered history, disaterous recent past. It will take a long time before those prejudiced against it die off, just like we need the backward thinkers within the church to die off.


The Church Fathers played a role in the recent referendum against gay marriage in Wisconsin. Bishop Morlino stated that gay marriage would destroy civilization. It was reported that he had a hand in crafting the amendment.

Telling impressionable people that their natural sexuality is a disease, or offensive to a god, is psychologically abusive.

Interfering with reasonable public health measures and reproductive freedom are both harmful.

Objectively, the Fathers have had more than a little influence in those areas.

WestSideYuppie
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:19 pm

DCB wrote:It took the Vatican 500 years to accept a heliocentric universe. Lets not put progress on hold for fear of offending their delicate sensibilities.


To be fair, it was less than 500 years. Heliocentrism was an embarrassment that the Church was glad to rid itself of. AFAIK the official "acceptance" was when the Church took Copernicus off the list of banned books. The development of Newtonian mechanics gave the Church a face-saving excuse for doing so.

If I had to guess, more recent developments will be harder for the Church to swallow, namely:

* Credible naturalistic views of human sexuality, reproduction, and consciousness.

* Moral equivalence of physical and psychological violence.

* Adoption of the concept of intellectual honesty as developed within the scientific community

Huckleby
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:51 pm

WestSideYuppie wrote: The Church Fathers played a role in the recent referendum against gay marriage in Wisconsin. Bishop Morlino stated that gay marriage would destroy civilization. It was reported that he had a hand in crafting the amendment.

I'm OK with clergy getting involved in politics (altho I'm against their tax exemption.)

WestSideYuppie wrote: Telling impressionable people that their natural sexuality is a disease, or offensive to a god, is psychologically abusive.

It's ignorant. Ya, it is psychologically abusive. A lot of religions have their psychologically abusive tendencies. I'm no fan of strict religions. But time has had a way of reforming them, I don't think many Catholics, including clergy, are still so ignorant and malicious towards gays.

Are you really afraid of the Catholic Church's influence? I see them as losing and fading rapidly into irrelevancy on the issues you mention. The vote against gays in WI was part of a national last gasp of bigotry, the tide has turned.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:14 pm

Huckleby wrote:Are you really afraid of the Catholic Church's influence?

Roman Catholicism is the largest religion in the U.S. In the past they had no meaningful political alliance with the evangelical South. Many of the evangelical churches called them Papists and said the RCC wasn't a true Christian faith. Of course they are more opposed to Mormons, which they (and the Catholics too) call an apostate cult.

But Santorum's extremely orthodox Catholic views are now coupled with those of the Protestant conservatives. JFK was Catholic, but made strong statements supporting secular reasoning and disavowed any Vatican political influence. If only Santorum would do the same.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:58 pm

The Republican view on birth control has certainly changed over the years.

Decades ago, a congressman from Texas argued passionately that the federal government should pay for birth control for poor women.

“We need to take sensationalism out of this topic so that it can no longer be used by militants who have no real knowledge of the voluntary nature of the program but, rather are using it as a political stepping stone,” said George H.W. Bush. “If family planning is anything, it is a public health matter.”

Title X, the law he sponsored that still funds family planning for the poor, passed the House by a vote of 298 to 32. It passed the Senate unanimously. A Republican president, Richard Nixon, enthusiastically signed it.


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