The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

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Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:04 am

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The problem is that nobody in a position to actually affect change seems to be doing anything about it.

When is the last time you read of a Catholic priest committing a sex crime?
Both church members and church leaders are hyper-vigilent. They've been through a wrenching 20 years. You're the one with the claims of a rancid church. Where is the evidence that child molestation persists?

I just put "Catholic priest sex" into google news and here are the results. Are you really that much into denial?

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:05 am

Average Joe wrote:Any reforms the church made were due to the financial burden of being caught, not because of any sense of urgency or moral wrong doing by the clergy.


Please. You don't think church elders were ashamed of members of the clergy violating children? Sounds like these are animals we're dealing with here - pure evil.

How is this not bigotry?

But I agree that the church membership threatening to withhold funds got the church moving faster than anything else. Their instinct was to cover-up the shame for the percieved good of the church.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:07 am

Henry Vilas wrote:I just put "Catholic priest sex" into google news and here are the results. Are you really that much into denial?


I think you'll find that most of the cases occurred a long time ago.
I'm sure there are still abuses today, but probably less than in other organizations. I expect that both the clergy and laity are hypervigilant because of the wringer they've been through.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Stella_Guru » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:21 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Or as Frank Zappa sang: "The meek shall inherit nothing."


Frank was referring to the Elites and their eugenicist plans for global extermination of the underclass through abortion as explained in his song "Latex Solar Beef", or was it "Dog Breath, in the Year of the Plague"?
Last edited by Stella_Guru on Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

rabble
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:25 am

Huckleby wrote:I think you'll find that most of the cases occurred a long time ago.
I'm sure there are still abuses today, but probably less than in other organizations. I expect that both the clergy and laity are hypervigilant because of the wringer they've been through.

Good lord, huck. They covered up that crap for decades. The same people are running the same parishes, it's only ten or twelve years later, and they're still getting caught with their pants down.

And you're right in there with the "probably less" and the "expect they're hyper-vigilant today" stuff, and you're saying with what I'm pretty sure is a straight face, that you're objective about this.

I think it might not be out of line to wonder if they've become hyper-better at hyper-coverupping and hyper-quiet about child molestations, and hyper-better at choosing victims.

And anyway, they're not having sex with minors nearly as much as they used to. And they do good things. So it all balances out.

Good God in Heaven, man.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:54 pm

rabble wrote:they're still getting caught with their pants down.

Is that true? Are there more incidents of sex abuse today than with Methodists, Unitarians, Boy Scouts, or Little League coaches?
My guess is that there is far less abuse because of scrutiny and weeding-out.

rabble wrote:I think it might not be out of line to wonder if they've become hyper-better at hyper-coverupping and hyper-quiet about child molestations, and hyper-better at choosing victims.

you have a very dark view of the catholic clergy that I do not share. I can't convince you that they are mostly good people, that only comes from life experience.

Many people still associate gay men with pedophilia. Statistically, there is a higher correlation. But the smearing of gay men or priests as pedophiles is bigotry.

rabble wrote:And anyway, they're not having sex with minors nearly as much as they used to. And they do good things. So it all balances out.
I am not presenting good deeds by the church as a sort of balancing, or penance for their crimes. That is a strawman that you and others set up. I see the good deeds as a manifestation of the positive ideology of christianity.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:08 pm

My mom was molested by a Catholic priest back in the 1940's. It went on for some time, and was done by a family friend. She never mentioned it to anybody until she was in her 70's. She paid a heavy price. Part of me still hates the Catholic church. I expect it was a *real* cesspool back before people talked about these issues.

I myself was abused, altho not sexually, by a sick, sadistic nun.

I am impressed at how much the church and catholic schools changed for the better in the 1970s.

I agree that the Church politics was rotten, just like Penn State bureaucracy.

I am mostly revolting against the narrow-minded bigotry I see here. But maybe that is to be expected, the scandals were horrendous. It may take a generation or more for Catholics to fully get past the notoriety.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:26 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote:they're still getting caught with their pants down.

Is that true?

You are still in denial. I posted a link from google news (note the operative word is news, not ancient history) that shows such abuses continue.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:49 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:You are still in denial. I posted a link from google news (note the operative word is news, not ancient history) that shows such abuses continue.

Those are typically reports of long past abuses.

Researcher who studies issue that I linked-to to claims that incidents have been "virtually ended" since early 1990's. I expect that occasionally it still happens, just like you get an occasional sicko Santa Claus at the mall, so google search will show some recent incidents.

It would be useful to get some hard statistics. It seems credible to me that a sharp spotlight is on Catholic clergy, and therefore the abuses are much lower there than similar situations.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:57 pm

Huckleby wrote:It would be useful to get some hard statistics. It seems credible to me that a sharp spotlight is on Catholic clergy, and therefore the abuses are much lower there than similar situations.

If that is your claim, then it is up to you to support it with facts, not just your suppositions.

And the link I posted included many current court cases concerning Catholic clerical abuses.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: If that is your claim, then it is up to you to support it with facts, not just your suppositions .

I gave a link to researcher who supports my sense of the situation.

IF you are going to condemn today's priests, it seems to me the burden is on you to find facts. A google search bringing up links to accusations means squat.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:08 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_s ... nd_victims

The Wikipedia article on Catholic sex abuse statistics quotes a 2002 study, which is only partially helpful, but it concludes thusly:

Although there were reported acts of sexual abuse of minors in every year, the incidence of reported abuse increased by several orders of magnitude in the 1960s and 1970s. There was, for example, a more than sixfold increase in the number of reported acts of abuse of males aged 11 to 17 between the 1950s and the 1970s. After peaking in the 1970s, the number of incidents decreased through the 1980s and 1990s even more sharply than the incidence rate had increased in the 1960s and 1970s.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:24 pm

So, we should stop picking on the Church because it looks like - we're not sure, but it looks like - they aren't molesting nearly as many kids as they were ten or twelve years ago.

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:37 pm

The pope (who is supposedly infallible in matters of faith and morals) actively covered up abuses in the past. What makes you think he isn't doing so now?

Here he is in action concerning a Wisconsin abuse case (involving hundreds of victims).

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:40 pm

Huckleby wrote:Your mind is made-up and closed.
Ah, the last refuge of someone when they cannot convince you with facts and logic.

Your arrogance is astounding. Y'know, it's not like I invented my opinion of The Church the day I started discussing it with you. You would have us believe that nobody has ever known a Catholic but you, nobody has ever talked to a priest but you, nobody is willing to look at the good of The Church but you, nobody else's life experiences with The Church are relevant, and everybody is closed-minded but the one guy here who has to do moral gymnastics to justify the continued existence of a criminal organization which stretches back further than anyone can remember.
Huckleby wrote: I agree that the church membership threatening to withhold funds got the church moving faster than anything else.
Wait, wait, wait... so you agree that the position I've been advocating since this discussion began is effective!? Cuz wow, that's exactly what I've been suggesting the Catholic rank-and-file do. Why was it a good idea then, but not now?
Huckleby wrote:Is that true? Are there more incidents of sex abuse today than with Methodists, Unitarians, Boy Scouts, or Little League coaches?
You don't seem to want to acknowledge that The Catholic Church is unique in its size, influence, age, and wealth. There simply aren't any other groups, organizations, or even other religious groups to which it can be reasonably compared, no matter how much you strain to do so. (Although, if there's a Pope of Little League, I'd sure like to meet him.)
But more importantly, who cares if there are more or fewer incidents in the Church than elsewhere?
How would the crimes of others absolve The Church of theirs?
And have any of those other groups spent decades covering up a vast network of criminal activity and still not been truly brought to justice?
Huckleby wrote:I can't convince you that they are mostly good people...
You don't need to. I think we all agree with you. But as I've said before, people can be essentially good and still have an ugly ideological blind spot. And doing good deeds does not absolve you of participating in great evil.
Huckleby wrote:Many people still associate gay men with pedophilia.
Funny you should mention that as it's the official line of The Catholic Church. I saw this time and time again when doing more reading last night. Virtually everything that came from the mouths of Cardinals and Archbishops, or was penned from someone inside The Vatican, makes it clear that the Church's view is that pedophilia is a symptom of homosexuality.


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