An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

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Michael Patrick
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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Michael Patrick » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:54 am

Meade wrote: And certainly not the police officer who did the victims a favor by gently spraying them with pepper spray - effectively de-escalating the situation.


Did them a favor? Gently spraying them with pepper spray? Seriously?

You live in one fucked up, upside down world, dude.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby kurt_w » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:13 am

There was a pretty nasty case back in 1997, when the Humboldt County sheriff's department dipped q-tips in liquid pepper spray and swabbed them directly on the eyeballs of protesters who were chained to bulldozers and a tree stump during protests against the logging of old-growth redwoods in California. At one point the deputies were forcibly holding open the eyelids of a 16-year-old girl (who was shackled to a tree stump, and obviously incapable of resisting) and pouring pepper spray directly onto her eyes.

The court decision that resulted from that incident might set a precedent for this new UC-Davis case. Deliberate use of pepper spray as a compliance tool against nonviolent subjects is excessive use of force. In the Humboldt case the sheriff's department only had to pay nominal damages (plus the victims' legal fees). UC-Davis may have to pay a higher price, if California law enforcement is ever going to get the message.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:38 am

Meade wrote:The few who were pepper sprayed got off easy. 30 minutes of disabling pain and then... nothing. No broken bones, no bruising, no blood.

You haven't been keeping up, Meade. Witnesses report several people had their mouths forced open and sprayed down their throats. At least one was coughing up blood hours later and others were still undergoing treatment.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:44 am

Igor wrote:In many cities, police officers perform far more brutal acts, and have far more brutal acts performed on them, every day.

I don't agree with the tactics of the police officer, or whoever made that decision. However, I also don't think that it is symptomatic of some great police conspiracy either.

Agreed on all counts, except that it's only a conspiracy if you try to keep it secret.

I'll say it again: Pile was acting according to the rules his police force had laid down. Same rules on police forces across the country.

It ain't a conspiracy because the rules are there for everybody to read but they are pretty damn uniform rules, nationwide.

Those rules may be about to change, but this was NOT an isolated incident by one lone wolf cop. This is how they think they're supposed to behave.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby wack wack » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:52 am

rabble wrote:I guess I should have explicitly stated that I don't feel sorry for him either.

But he is definitely a product of our police system. He probably joined the force because he wanted to catch bad guys, not because he wanted to hurt people and get away with it.


You make some good points, but I just don't agree with this. I don't believe that most cops are good hearts turned bad by the system. I think most cops are control freaks with less-than-positive outlooks on humanity to start, and are attracted to the profession for this reason. It's easier to be a natural asshole without repercussions working as a cop than it is working as a desk jockey.

The pro-people showing by the police in the spring was unusual and temporary. Our own, wonderful Walter seems to be genuine, and a very rare exception in law enforcement.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Meade » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:10 am

rabble wrote:You haven't been keeping up, Meade. Witnesses report several people had their mouths forced open and sprayed down their throats. At least one was coughing up blood hours later and others were still undergoing treatment.


With all the cameras at the scene of the "crime", I'll believe it when I see the video(s). Better yet - get your reporting witnesses under oath.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby kurt_w » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:15 am

rabble wrote:I'll say it again: Pile was acting according to the rules his police force had laid down. Same rules on police forces across the country.


Any police department that allows its officers to use pepper spray at close range on nonviolent, nonthreatening persons is asking for lawsuits.

At Davis, two officers plus the chief of police are now on administrative leave, and more faculty are calling for the chancellor to resign.

Law enforcement agencies need to get the message that pepper spray is not a tool for dealing with peaceful civil disobedience. I would have thought Californians would have absorbed that message after the Humboldt County case, but apparently not.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:31 am

kurt_w wrote:
rabble wrote:I'll say it again: Pile was acting according to the rules his police force had laid down. Same rules on police forces across the country.


Any police department that allows its officers to use pepper spray at close range on nonviolent, nonthreatening persons is asking for lawsuits.

At Davis, two officers plus the chief of police are now on administrative leave, and more faculty are calling for the chancellor to resign.

Law enforcement agencies need to get the message that pepper spray is not a tool for dealing with peaceful civil disobedience. I would have thought Californians would have absorbed that message after the Humboldt County case, but apparently not.


I agree with everything you say. The problem is that right now our police forces don't.

I kinda hesitate to say "except ours" because I haven't seen the MPD and UWPD rules for behavior, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out our police have different rules for use of pepper spray.

Which might be why we have problems believing Lt Pike's actions were sanctioned and that his superiors are genuinely surprised at the public reaction. In their minds, this is just the way it is.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby jjoyce » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:49 am

To be cynical for a second... Point: Occupy.

This is what protests are partially about: images. Push the cops to do something stupid, get it on video and distribute. The result is hopefully that people will be so mortified that they'll side with the protesters, if only because who couldn't be opposed to the hard-to-watch video?

This is what Meade does when he visits the Solidarity Singers. He's hoping to provoke one of them into taking a swing and when they do, he's there filming.

Images of that cop have now reached the level of photoshop gags. The protesters have won the week.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:17 am

jjoyce wrote:To be cynical for a second... Point: Occupy.

This is what protests are partially about: images. Push the cops to do something stupid, get it on video and distribute.

So it's your conclusion that Lt Pike was coerced into doing that by the protestors? Do you think that was a goal?

I agree it was a propaganda boost of epic proportions for the occupy movement but I'm having trouble getting my mind around the notion that anyone but his fellow cops expected him to do what he did.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Meade » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:29 am

jjoyce wrote:This is what Meade does when he visits the Solidarity Singers. He's hoping to provoke one of them into taking a swing and when they do, he's there filming.


Jason, is it possible that you are projecting? I'd be interested in hearing from you just why it is you imagine what my hopes and intentions are.

The truth is that I've never hoped for, provoked, or expected violence from the Solidarity Singers. On what exactly do you base your supposed insights into my psychology?

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby fennel » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:18 pm

Interesting Article on so-called pepper spray and associated risks.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby TheBookPolice » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:21 pm

Meade wrote:Jason, is it possible that you are projecting? I'd be interested in hearing from you just why it is you imagine what my hopes and intentions are.

The truth is that I've never hoped for, provoked, or expected violence from the Solidarity Singers. On what exactly do you base your supposed insights into my psychology?

Ask this guy; he seems to know what's going on in other peoples' minds:

Most voted for Obama with hopes of change. But Obama represents the 1%. Obama IS the 1%. I sympathize with them in their disappointment.

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Re: An Article on the Pepper Spray Mentality

Postby Meade » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:42 pm

TheBookPolice wrote:Ask this guy; he seems to know what's going on in other peoples' minds


Clever. Sort of.

Here http://thetyee.ca/News/2011/10/07/Kalle-Lasn-Occupy-Wall-Street/ is my source for my assertion that, "Most voted for Obama with hopes of change.":

On why it took three years after Lehman Brothers' implosion for people to storm the streets:

"When the financial meltdown happened, there was a feeling that, 'Wow, things are going to change. Obama is going to pass all kinds of laws, and we are going to have a different kind of banking system, and we are going to take these financial fraudsters and bring them to justice.' There was a feeling like, 'Hey, we just elected a guy who may actually do this.' In a way, there wasn't this desperate edge. Among the young people there was a very positive feeling. And then slowly this feeling that he's a bit of a gutless wonder slowly crept in, and now we're despondent again."



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