Government Motors...a success story.

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fisticuffs
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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:50 am

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix the system.


Talk to the Senate Republicans about that one.

I think this all traces back to the lack of total CFR re: full public financing of all political campaigns.


That one too.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:52 am

Henry Vilas wrote:If only GM was allowed to fail, then venture capitalists would have invested the hundred of millions of dollars needed to start up a new automobile manufacturer.

Or maybe not.


History suggests they would have. Or perhaps we could have let the Chinese build cars while we moved on to the next, more innovative and advanced industry (like solar, wind or batteries or anything more sophisticated than the internal combustion engine).

If you don't believe Americans could have found something better to build then you don't believe in the American Way of the past 200 years.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:54 am

fisticuffs wrote:
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix the system.


Talk to the Senate Republicans about that one.

I think this all traces back to the lack of total CFR re: full public financing of all political campaigns.


That one too.


I agree 100%. This is not on Obama (yet). But he needs to push through tough reforms because the Repubilcans certainly can't (won't).

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:59 am

Crockett wrote:If you don't believe Americans could have found something better to build then you don't believe in the American Way of the past 200 years.

The American Way of the past 200 years has been use it like it'll never run out, move on when it does, get a few white males rich, keep the rest of them in poverty, enslave them if you can, and lend them money at high interest if you can't.

Sure, we could have found something better for the rich. The rest of us can go to hell.

Waltzing at the Doomsday Ball
Capitalism is dead, but we still dance with the corpse
By Joe Bageant

As an Anglo European white guy from a very long line of white guys, I want to thank all the brown, black, yellow and red people for a marvelous three-century joy ride. During the past 300 years of the industrial age, as Europeans, and later as Americans, we have managed to consume infinitely more than we ever produced, thanks to colonialism, crooked deals with despotic potentates and good old gunboats and grapeshot.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:09 am

Or perhaps we could have let the Chinese build cars while we moved on to the next, more innovative and advanced industry (like solar, wind or batteries or anything more sophisticated than the internal combustion engine).


Again. That's blasphemy in Republican circles. We've had 30 years to make that transition and the wealth of Big Oil has wrapped itself around most Republicans and some Democrats and choked out any attempt to do so. It's not going to happen on its own because the "free market" you think will bring this to us is too heavily invested in current technology. It's going to take a serious push from the government to make any progress.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:12 am

fisticuffs wrote:
Or perhaps we could have let the Chinese build cars while we moved on to the next, more innovative and advanced industry (like solar, wind or batteries or anything more sophisticated than the internal combustion engine).


Again. That's blasphemy in Republican circles. We've had 30 years to make that transition and the wealth of Big Oil has wrapped itself around most Republicans and some Democrats and choked out any attempt to do so. It's not going to happen on its own because the "free market" you think will bring this to us is too heavily invested in current technology. It's going to take a serious push from the government to make any progress.


Agreed. And that push is not coming from bailing out GM (and Big Oil).

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:16 am

rabble wrote:The American Way of the past 200 years has been use it like it'll never run out, move on when it does, get a few white males rich, keep the rest of them in poverty, enslave them if you can, and lend them money at high interest if you can't.

Sure, we could have found something better for the rich. The rest of us can go to hell.


A rising tide does not lift all boats equally but its better than the alternative.

We still lead the world in many areas. We still have very little relative poverty, hunger, crime. You can still immigrate from a third world country, start a company and make millions without getting killed by an oligarch.

The American Dream is still alive...it just needs the government counteract the transparent greed/systematic risk in politics and some big business today.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:19 am

Crockett wrote:The American Dream is still alive...it just needs the government counteract the transparent greed/systematic risk in politics and some big business today.

Read the article I linked to. Then quote me some more Reaganisms.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:23 am

rabble wrote:
Crockett wrote:The American Dream is still alive...it just needs the government counteract the transparent greed/systematic risk in politics and some big business today.

Read the article I linked to. Then quote me some more Reaganisms.


Ok, he thinks capitalism sucks. I get it. So what's the alternative? Should we throw the whole thing away rather than reform it?

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:25 pm

Crockett wrote:
rabble wrote:
Crockett wrote:The American Dream is still alive...it just needs the government counteract the transparent greed/systematic risk in politics and some big business today.

Read the article I linked to. Then quote me some more Reaganisms.


Ok, he thinks capitalism sucks. I get it. So what's the alternative? Should we throw the whole thing away rather than reform it?

Crockett, good posts in this thread.

I read through the Bageant article - what a bunch of disorganized ranting! He is correct on a number of his observations (which are apolitical), wrong about his understanding of what economics is, and utterly fails to suggest any plan to deal with our predicament.

Let's suppose that all those Top 1% Capitalists (whoever they are) magically disappear and their fictitious monetary wealth (our debt) disappears with them. What next? Is that our cue to abandon the concept of money? I'm not sure what Bageant is proposing.

Bageant quotes Jim Kunstler. I read Kunstler faithfully and I suggest reading through Kunstler's weekly blog posts for a more concise, pelletized version of many of the same arguments Bageant is making.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:32 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Again. That's blasphemy in Republican circles

Try to imagine that some people are not mindless slaves to political parties. You seem to be arguing against a mythical creature - some kind of Coulter/Cheney/Limbaugh manbearpig.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:15 pm

Crockett wrote:And any start-up companies that could have stepped in to make a better, more efficient, perhaps more innovative product have been squashed.


Why? Do you need a large company to fail in order for start-ups to occur. There is still money out there. And as someone else said, a start-up is not going to come in a shwooosh, make a better car. That takes time. They've had years and years to be a start-up and they still can start up. I think that is a moot point for this debate.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby ArturoBandini » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:46 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Why? Do you need a large company to fail in order for start-ups to occur. There is still money out there. And as someone else said, a start-up is not going to come in a shwooosh, make a better car. That takes time. They've had years and years to be a start-up and they still can start up. I think that is a moot point for this debate.

It is absolutely not a moot point. While a new company can start up in the presence of a state-subsidized oligopoly, they are at a competitive disadvantage (because they are not subsidized).

Crockett made an excellent point earlier when suggesting that the start-ups might not even make cars - they might make something else entirely. Maybe those engineers and factory-line employees would be better off long-term working in whatever new industry develops after GM closes shop. Those "good-paying American jobs" in the auto industry only existed on their own terms for just a few decades - they had by no means achieved a stasis in the American economic/jobs picture.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:49 pm

While a new company can start up in the presence of a state-subsidized oligopoly, they are at a competitive disadvantage (because they are not subsidized).


Bullshit. Tesla. Just becasue we bailed out GM doesn't mean we can't subsidize an upstart. Having just enough Republican'ts in congress to block anything productive is more of a road block.

You come up with a good business plan to make a greener vehicle there is money out there for you too.

Still waiting to hear one good thing that would have come from not LOANING GM money.

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Re: Government Motors...a success story.

Postby Crockett » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:01 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
While a new company can start up in the presence of a state-subsidized oligopoly, they are at a competitive disadvantage (because they are not subsidized).


Bullshit. Tesla. Just becasue we bailed out GM doesn't mean we can't subsidize an upstart. Having just enough Republican'ts in congress to block anything productive is more of a road block.

You come up with a good business plan to make a greener vehicle there is money out there for you too.

Still waiting to hear one good thing that would have come from not LOANING GM money.


I'd love the govt to subsidize an upstart car company that will help us get out of the middle east. GM is not that company. In fact, GM IS Big Oil. Their whole business plan was based on SUVs.

We should subsidize business that has positive externalities (like Tesla) and punish (ie tax) business that cause us to go to war (Big Oil). I'd LOVE to hear a politician call for higher taxes on oil to fund the war.

I've never said we didn't 'have to' bail out GM this time. I do say that it was a necessary evil given the broad negligence of government regulation. To call the bailout a 'success' however is going too far.


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