The War Is Making You Poor

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Comrade
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Comrade » Fri May 28, 2010 11:03 am

fisticuffs--I DID back up what I said--you just didn't get it and you remain in the dark. I am really sorry, but you will have to stay that way. It is my fault, but I DON'T KNOW HOW to make you see. If you want to consider that to be a lost arguement, well OK. Win the battle and lose the war. Stay on your train.

It is pointless for me to go on--farewell

Henry Vilas
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri May 28, 2010 11:22 am

Comrade wrote:farewell

Promise?

fisticuffs
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby fisticuffs » Fri May 28, 2010 11:29 am

I DID back up what I said--you just didn't get it and you remain in the dark.


I can read what you wrote. It sounds like you think no one pays taxes so why cut them? Alright. You're against tax cuts and for wasteful military spending? Your 47% number you probably throw out 50 times a day isn't cold hard fact it's carefully crafted distortion. Too bad you are too blind to see that.

Average Joe
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Average Joe » Fri May 28, 2010 12:38 pm

Comrade wrote:fisticuffs--I DID back up what I said--you just didn't get it and you remain in the dark.


You puke some trite platitudes without any specifics, accuse others of being blind and them seem dumbfounded why people question what the hell you're talking about. Tell me, how do you bear the heavy burden of knowing all while lacking the ability to communicate the answers?

Ned Flanders
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri May 28, 2010 1:31 pm

Since "providing for the common defense" is one of the few consitutionally enumerated powers granted to the federal government, may I suggest we start with other dubious federal initiatives including the Department of Education, the Depatment of Energy, the Department of Labor, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Farm subsidies? Transfer payments in general? Perhaps a reduction in the federal bureaucracy as a whole?

Galoot
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Galoot » Fri May 28, 2010 1:50 pm

Neddietroll, care to explain how "provide for the common defense" has anything at all to do with a war in Iraq?

Henry Vilas
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri May 28, 2010 2:10 pm

I agree, attacking Iraq has nothing to do with our "common defense." But since you brought that up Ned, lets look at that in context:

Article I, Section 8: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States...

Notice that "general welfare" is also included in that phrase.

Just wanted to point that out.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri May 28, 2010 2:22 pm

Hey Pops, do you really believe that "welfare" meant food stamps, WIC payments, school lunches, free health care, job training etc, abortions, birth control, housing vouchers etc to our founding fathers?

And to think 'ol Hank was a teacher :shock:

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri May 28, 2010 2:27 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Hey Pops, do you really believe that "welfare" meant food stamps, WIC payments, school lunches, free health care, job training etc, abortions, birth control, housing vouchers etc to our founding fathers?


Yet you think our Founding Fathers would consider a preemptive strike against a sovereign nation halfway across the globe falls under the rubric of a "common defense." You can't have it both ways, Ned.

Average Joe
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Average Joe » Fri May 28, 2010 2:40 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:You can't have it both ways, Ned.


When one's thought process is ruled by ideology rather than logic, yes you can.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri May 28, 2010 2:55 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:Hey Pops, do you really believe that "welfare" meant food stamps, WIC payments, school lunches, free health care, job training etc, abortions, birth control, housing vouchers etc to our founding fathers?


Yet you think our Founding Fathers would consider a preemptive strike against a sovereign nation halfway across the globe falls under the rubric of a "common defense." You can't have it both ways, Ned.


I guess that could be up for debate. But at the time, both Democrats and Republicans as well as American and Eurpoean intelligence agencies thought that Iraq and Saddam were a danger.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri May 28, 2010 3:36 pm

It seems to me that both liberals and conservatives can find plenty to applaud and deride in the phrase "General Welfare", as it was understood and applied by the Founders. It was a purposely vague phrase, meant to encompass virtually everything not included elsewhere in either the Preamble or Article 1, Section 8. This includes, but is not limited to, promoting manufactures, agriculture, education, housing, and just about anything else -- the only limit on what it means being the presence of the word "general", as in the opposite of "limited". In other words, Congress can only promote and provide for those things which benefit the welfare of the nation as a whole, not just some part of it. Unfortunately, this supposed clarification is fairly open to interpretation, and the Founders themselves never found much common ground. Hamilton argued that it granted the Federal government the power to establish a national bank. Madison and Jefferson hoped to apply it to education. Washington argued that agriculture was "of primary importance" to the nation. And so on. There are very few things upon which everyone will agree are beneficial to everyone, as opposed to just a select few, and that applies to the broad ideas envisioned by the Founders (and more modern folks like FDR, who was the first to actually test the General Welfare clause in the Supreme Court, eventually leading to the New Deal) as well as the specific examples cited above by Ned, many of which seem on the surface to have only limited benefit, but can easily be shown to benefit society as a whole, if that's the way you lean ideologically.

In other words, the debate over the true meaning of that phrase has been raging since it was penned, and there's almost assuredly no end in sight.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri May 28, 2010 3:40 pm

Good points by Waggie. But whatever the interpretation, I can't believe the Founding Fathers could imagine or approve of the modern welfare state and the size of governement as a whole.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri May 28, 2010 3:44 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: But at the time, both Democrats and Republicans as well as American and Eurpoean intelligence agencies thought that Iraq and Saddam were a danger.

Based on lies that even fooled our Secretary of State Colin Powell, a former high ranking military commander. Why do you think he resigned?

Old oilmen Bush and Cheney got what they wanted. You and I are now paying for it.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri May 28, 2010 3:47 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: But at the time, both Democrats and Republicans as well as American and Eurpoean intelligence agencies thought that Iraq and Saddam were a danger.

Based on lies that even fooled our Secretary of State Colin Powell, a former high ranking military commander. Why do you think he resigned?

Old oilmen Bush and Cheney got what they wanted. You and I are now paying for it.

You can try to spin this any way you want. Iraq was considered a threat by Congress, the Clinton administration, the Blair administration and the intelligence agencies.


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