The War Is Making You Poor

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri May 28, 2010 3:50 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:I can't believe the Founding Fathers could imagine or approve of the modern welfare state and the size of governement as a whole.
Nor could they imagine or approve of the massive standing military we currently enjoy, the ever-increasing influence of religion on government, or the bastardization of science for political ends. It really does cut both ways.

But the thing is, they were savvy enough to understand that there was no way they could envision where the great experiment they set in motion would lead, which is why The Constitution was devised to be amendable, checks and balances were set in place, and elections were provided for on a regular basis. Looking to the Founders to guide us is foolish. They gave us the power to guide ourselves.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri May 28, 2010 4:08 pm

Ah, here's where waggie starts going off the rails. Religion, of course, was woven into every aspect of society as Christianity was one of the pillars of Western thought as well as the founding of this country. To try and argue otherwise is comical. And to argue that the founders could have forseen or approved of our progression to a bankrupt nanny state is equally comical.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri May 28, 2010 4:37 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Religion, of course, was woven into every aspect of society as Christianity was one of the pillars of Western thought as well as the founding of this country.
About half of the Founders were deists, not rank and file Christians.

I refer you to the Treaty of Tripoli, article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...."

Ratified by Congress and signed by President John Adams in 1797.

Your turn to spin away.

rabble
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby rabble » Fri May 28, 2010 5:44 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Looking to the Founders to guide us is foolish. They gave us the power to guide ourselves.

qft

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri May 28, 2010 5:57 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Religion, of course, was woven into every aspect of society as Christianity was one of the pillars of Western thought as well as the founding of this country.

I've never suggested that Christianity, or religious thought in general, had no influence on the minds of the Founding Fathers. But the historical record is extremely clear that most of them felt very strongly that religion and government should never be intertwined. We've argued this many times in the past, most comically resulting in your claim that the "Wall of Separation" was one-way only, but The Founders understood quite clearly that a separation between church and state was necessary to preserve both from corrupting influences. You don't want the government in your religion, and I don't want your religion in my government, so we should both be happy with this arrangement.

Ned Flanders wrote:And to argue that the founders could have forseen or approved of our progression to a bankrupt nanny state is equally comical.
I argued nothing of the kind. I agreed with you that they could not have foreseen this. What they foresaw was that they couldn't foresee the future, so instead of trying to second-guess the future, they wisely chose to provide us with the tools to guide ourselves in the form of The Constitution.

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby O.J. » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:59 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: You don't want the government in your religion,


Ned's always willing to make exceptions...

http://www.slate.com/id/2255270/

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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby DCB » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:46 am

Ned Flanders wrote: Religion, of course, was woven into every aspect of society as Christianity was one of the pillars of Western thought as well as the founding of this country.


And it still is. As are many other points of view, religious and otherwise. And thats because we have a constitution that promotes diverse points of view, by institutionalizing the separation of church and state.

Henry Vilas
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Re: The War Is Making You Poor

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:00 pm



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