Stimulus Passes Senate

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.
dave esmond
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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby dave esmond » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:06 pm

O.J. wrote: I'm not sure why giving businesses added incentive to hire and expand and allowing employees to take home more of their earnings wouldn't be stimulative.


I'd agree that those are good things. I just think you ought to get the "incentive" after you're done the hiring. If you give the tax break to 100% of businesses and only 10% of 'em do any hiring it's not much of a stimulus.

Employees taking more home is good. Somewhere down the line I might tie it to saving and buying healthcare. But right now money in pockets is gonna be the best thing.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:52 pm

Obama
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dogmeat
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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby dogmeat » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Denying the New Deal is about as whacko as denying the Holocaust.

You should really clarify that statement. Do you mean denying that the New Deal happened is crazy or that it caused the economy to recover?

The Depression continued until the US entered World War II. There is a lot of evidence that wartime spending, rationing, the buildup of military equipment, retooling of the factories and increased recruiting by manufacturers to meet government demands actually ended the Depression. Until the war, the New Deal only slowed the decreasing GNP. Never during all those years did the GNP actually increase. Polls overwhelming agreed at the time that Roosevelt's policies were a deterrence to business and not leading to substantial recovery. The New Deal is romantically idealized now because recovery did happen, but did so due to other factors. History texts love champions, but the fact is it was a war that ended the Depression, not Rosevelt's reforms.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:50 am

dogmeat wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:Denying the New Deal is about as whacko as denying the Holocaust.

You should really clarify that statement. Do you mean denying that the New Deal happened is crazy or that it caused the economy to recover?

The Depression continued until the US entered World War II. There is a lot of evidence that wartime spending, rationing, the buildup of military equipment, retooling of the factories and increased recruiting by manufacturers to meet government demands actually ended the Depression. Until the war, the New Deal only slowed the decreasing GNP. Never during all those years did the GNP actually increase. Polls overwhelming agreed at the time that Roosevelt's policies were a deterrence to business and not leading to substantial recovery. The New Deal is romantically idealized now because recovery did happen, but did so due to other factors. History texts love champions, but the fact is it was a war that ended the Depression, not Rosevelt's reforms.


Hey now - don't get all "hold on, let's look critically at the details" on us. Completely unsupported Holocaust-denial analogy stands!

When we get all the potholes filled, and the schools techno-fied, what are we going to do next? Has the stimulus solved any underlying problem, or just offered to delay underlying problems until further into the future? What is our economy based on nowadays? (Not a rhetorical question) If we take out high-level finance, war profiteering, and limitless suburban expansion, how much of the GDP do we have left?

How about Obama's speech to Elkhart, IN? Should we really be looking forward to a future in which the RV's and Travel-Trailers start rollin' off the line again? How responsible would that be? How realistic is such an expectation? Be honest with yourselves.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby Galoot » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:49 am

dogmeat wrote:
The Depression continued until the US entered World War II. There is a lot of evidence that wartime spending, rationing, the buildup of military equipment, retooling of the factories and increased recruiting by manufacturers to meet government demands actually ended the Depression. Until the war, the New Deal only slowed the decreasing GNP. Never during all those years did the GNP actually increase. Polls overwhelming agreed at the time that Roosevelt's policies were a deterrence to business and not leading to substantial recovery. The New Deal is romantically idealized now because recovery did happen, but did so due to other factors. History texts love champions, but the fact is it was a war that ended the Depression, not Rosevelt's reforms.


How can a war end a Depression? You said so yourself. The government spent even MORE money than it had been spending. The New Deal slowed the decrease of the GNP, as you admitted. So what was wrong, apparently, was that the government didn't spend enough money getting people working. The war simply provided a reason that allowed the government to really get into deficit spending mode, without pissing off the voters. And the wartime spending resulted in jobs and economic growth.

I get tired of hearing about how the New Deal didn't end the Depression, it took WWII to do it. It completely ignores the huge deficit spending that DID result in job growth.

And Keynesian economists are saying that if anything, the stimulus bill is far too small to really fix our economy right now.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:09 am

I'm not saying the New Deal was the one and only reason the depression ended but the fashionable thing in Republican circles lately seems to be to deny that FDR did anything to help this country end that depression. It doesn't fit with their ideology in these times so they throw it under the bus as inconsequential and that couldn't be more ridiculous. Somehow they expect us to buy that Reagan was the greatest President ever and FDR was just another tax and spend liberal.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:13 am

fisticuffs wrote:I'm not saying the New Deal was the one and only reason the depression ended but the fashionable thing in Republican circles lately seems to be to deny that FDR did anything to help this country end that depression. It doesn't fit with their ideology in these times so they throw it under the bus as inconsequential and that couldn't be more ridiculous. Somehow they expect us to buy that Reagan was the greatest President ever and FDR was just another tax and spend liberal.

Very reasonable. There is a lot of grey area on this issue. Here's Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke on the Fed's involvement in the Great Depression:
"Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again." http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php? ... geId=59405
Oops.
Galoot wrote:And Keynesian economists are saying that if anything, the stimulus bill is far too small to really fix our economy right now.

This excuse could apply equally well to a proposed stimulus 10 or 100 times the current one. A major problem I have with Keynesian stimuli is that they are impossible to prove ineffective, because they always could have been bigger. There is always more money to print and rob from the labors of our children, right?

Again, IF we recover from this with any resources remaining, let's look for fundamental problems, not politically-prudent distractions.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby Stella_Guru » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:57 am

Obama
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dogmeat
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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby dogmeat » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:54 pm

Galoot wrote:How can a war end a Depression? You said so yourself.

It created demand. It also rallied the people behind a cause. The fact is as soon as the government ordered the opening of factories to build equipment and supplies, the GDP began increasing.

It doesn't take a war to do that. We need to increase demand. Washington wants to avoid talking about it, let alone do something about it, but the fact is that it is much cheaper to manufacture products outside the US. It's great having access to cheaper products, but we've run into the problem that we don't produce enough here to keep everyone employed and able to buy the cheap products. We need to evaluate all our trade agreements and level the field for American workers. That will probably mean in decrease in the standard of living, but let's face it, we live pretty high on the hog.

Personally I don't think we should allow the importation of any product from any nation that does not have reasonable working conditions and pay for workers. That pretty much means China will be out of the market unless they get their act together.

The government won't likely do anything about that, so consumers need to start focusing on American made products and demanding more from stores.

Until demand for American products increases we won't see a meaningful recovery. The stimulus bill has nothing to address that. It just spends money we don't have, so they'll have to print it.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby cloudy » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:47 pm

Dogmeat, you don't know what the hell you're talking about

newdeal.jpg
newdeal.jpg (11.66 KiB) Viewed 486 times

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:55 pm

cloudy wrote:Dogmeat, you don't know what the hell you're talking about

newdeal.jpg

Erm, what is the percentage of? (The y axis) Unless GDP is not quoted in dollars, but percentage points... Doesn't the title of that graph look like an overlay of a real title? If not, it's a very poor graphics layout.

Also, government spending is calculated as a part of GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

Again, we need more details before this argument is settled.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby cloudy » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:37 pm

dogmeat wrote:The Depression continued until the US entered World War II. There is a lot of evidence that wartime spending, rationing, the buildup of military equipment, retooling of the factories and increased recruiting by manufacturers to meet government demands actually ended the Depression. Until the war, the New Deal only slowed the decreasing GNP. Never during all those years did the GNP actually increase. Polls overwhelming agreed at the time that Roosevelt's policies were a deterrence to business and not leading to substantial recovery. The New Deal is romantically idealized now because recovery did happen, but did so due to other factors. History texts love champions, but the fact is it was a war that ended the Depression, not Rosevelt's reforms.

Dogmeat is wrong, wrong, and wrong again. He's just making shit up. Here are some facts:
"GDP, only available as annual averages, plunged 25.6 percent from 1929-1932, including by 13.0 percent in 1932. It stabilized in 1933 [FDR takes office], and then soared by 10.8 percent, 8.9 percent and 12.0 percent, respectively, in 1934, 1935 and 1936. Real GDP surpassed its 1929 peak in 1936 and never again fell below it. After-tax personal income, consumer spending, real private investment and jobs all reached or surpassed their 1929 peaks by late 1936...By any normal definition, the Great Depression had ended by late 1936, with all major indicators surpassing their previous peaks."
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/200 ... ailed-myth

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby Stella_Guru » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:07 am

From 1929 to 1939 adult unemployment averaged 18%. WWII ended high unemployment and the United States has been on a war footing ever since.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 am

Erm, what is the percentage of? (The y axis) Unless GDP is not quoted in dollars, but percentage points... Doesn't the title of that graph look like an overlay of a real title? If not, it's a very poor graphics layout.

Also, government spending is calculated as a part of GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

Again, we need more details before this argument is settled.


This is what I'm talking about. You give Arturo hard numbers on this and still he questions the source and whether or not its doctored. Well a quick google search and you will find these numbers in greater detail from about 1000 different sources. Here's the fact. The New Deal had the desired effect. It started the process. Yes it took off with WWII but would we have even been able or willing to start all that manufacturing if the war was in 1930? Anyone who says the New Deal didn't end the Great Depression is a damned liar. I know shocking right. Right wing Radio lies? Who knew? I did. Some of you need to understand that. Rush, Sean and their ilk are damned liars. It's not their politics I have a problem with it's that they are outwardly untruthful every single day.

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Re: Stimulus Passes Senate

Postby Stella_Guru » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:03 pm

FDR
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