The GOP's health care dilemma

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PaleoLiberal
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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby PaleoLiberal » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:48 pm

There is a thing called cognitive dissonance.

Example from American history.

There were some people who made money out of a truly horrible system called slavery.
IT was obvious to anyone that the slaves got the worse end of the deal.
Yet, there were slave owners who firmly believed that they were kind to their slaves (even if they beat them mercilessly and/or worked them to death), that the slaves were happy serving their masters, and that the slaves were far better off being slaves than being free.

When you take two contradictory ideas: (A) I am a good person and (B) I am profiting off of someone else' suffering, at some point the mind works out a way that clears up the contradiction.

That was an extreme case, but if slave owners could convince themselves that they were benefiting the slaves, then there are politicians who can convince themselves that they are on the side of the angels, even as they serve the Devil.

gargantua
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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby gargantua » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:14 pm

I do believe that there are ideologues who sincerely believe that the government is too large, infringes on freedom, and fosters an unhealthy dependence on government. I also believe that there are quite a few amoral assholes (Scott Walker is an example) in that camp. Assuming that they're all just evil seems extreme to me.

Ned Flounders
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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Ned Flounders » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:24 pm

It's not clear to me whether PL and G are saying the same thing or different things. If one supports a bad cause, does it matter if one is doing it out of sincere belief vs amoral assholery? If someone serves the Devil does that mean they are necessarily evil? I am not versed in philosophy or theology and have no real opinion on such questions.

gargantua
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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby gargantua » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:28 pm

Ned Flounders wrote:It's not clear to me whether PL and G are saying the same thing or different things. If one supports a bad cause, does it matter if one is doing it out of sincere belief vs amoral assholery? If someone serves the Devil does that mean they are necessarily evil? I am not versed in philosophy or theology and have no real opinion on such questions.

Well, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot to the victims, I'll give you that.

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Cadfael » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:59 pm

gargantua wrote:
Ned Flounders wrote:It's not clear to me whether PL and G are saying the same thing or different things. If one supports a bad cause, does it matter if one is doing it out of sincere belief vs amoral assholery? If someone serves the Devil does that mean they are necessarily evil? I am not versed in philosophy or theology and have no real opinion on such questions.

Well, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot to the victims, I'll give you that.

If it exists at all, it's only a few of the more thickheaded ones who aren't in leadership roles. If you assume the Republicans are heartless soulless conniving bastards who don't care about anyone but their inner circles, you'll be right most of the time and your tactics will be more effective. Don't ever think they might show mercy or be swayed by logic. They live by court intrigue and backstabbing. That's how they think everyone lives.

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Ned Flounders » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:11 pm

Wow. I thought the first version of this bill was a mess, but it sounds like the next version is worse rather than better. Holy fuck.

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Roy » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:29 pm

Ned Flounders wrote:Wow. I thought the first version of this bill was a mess, but it sounds like the next version is worse rather than better. Holy fuck.

In other words it must be an improvement. :mrgreen:

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby fflambeau » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:53 am

The name for it is TrumpCare

Cadfael
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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Cadfael » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:22 am

Roy wrote:
Ned Flounders wrote:Wow. I thought the first version of this bill was a mess, but it sounds like the next version is worse rather than better. Holy fuck.

In other words it must be an improvement. :mrgreen:

I am having a difficult time dealing with a veteran's humor at the thought of fellow veterans dying. What sort of soul does it take for that?

This is assuming Roy's back story is at least partially true. Even with the personality shifts that certain medications force us through, this is ideology overcoming everything else including the welfare of people who served alongside of you. Cognitive dissonance isn't enough of an explanation.

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby jman111 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:31 am

Let's not overlook the obvious explanation:
Image

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby jman111 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:33 am

Or, more intellectually appropriate:
Image

Cadfael
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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Cadfael » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:40 am

I supposes it does, but - again, assuming the back story is true - Roy doesn't got all that much. Health care yes, but it appears fairly minimal, income sounds like it's barely enough for day to day living with no real discretionary, nor does the support network seem very strong.

So the "I got mine" logic seems faulty. What Roy's got is a lot less than what Roy would have under a more socialistic system. He's managed okay because the services he needs haven't been cut yet and he'll probably die before they get cut enough to destroy the quality of life he's managed to keep. He barely got in under the wire.

So why does he take such glee in the misfortune of his fellow soldiers? As long as it pisses off the left, homeless veterans dying in the streets is a funny thing. I will never understand it.

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Bland » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:45 am

Cadfael wrote:As long as it pisses off the left

This.

Right and wrong doesn't matter, morality is of no importance, and empathy is not even considered. It's just about laughing at his (perceived) enemies. Funny stuff.

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby Cadfael » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:00 pm

Earlier I ranted about the Republican leadership being one big cadre of "me and mine, fuck everybody else" conniving lying thieving bastards who know exactly what they are and what they're doing. I understand that. They're scumbags but I get how their minds work. They're rich assholes who want to stay rich and have lots of poor servants, preferably scared and hungry.

What I will never understand is how someone like Roy can happily vote against his own welfare and the welfare of people he loves. He's not rich, everything the Republicans take from the people is taken from him as well. And he gives it happily and offers his sword against whoever they choose to call enemy.

THIS, I do not understand. You can explain it to me over and over again. I understand the words but not why they are true. A suicidal person walking off a cliff, I understand. An otherwise sane person walking off a cliff while telling you it's a sidewalk, I don't. And that's pretty much what's happening here.

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Re: The GOP's health care dilemma

Postby jman111 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:20 pm

Cadfael wrote:A suicidal person walking off a cliff, I understand. An otherwise sane person walking off a cliff while telling you it's a sidewalk, I don't. And that's pretty much what's happening here.

Unless there's a way to convince that person that the cliff really is a sidewalk. Once they step off and realize it actually is a cliff, it's too late for them.

What's really odd to me is that many who actually see the cliff and stop short will blame their political opponents for changing the sidewalk into a cliff (rather than considering the possibility that the cliff existed all along, propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding).


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