CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

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O.J.
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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby O.J. » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:52 pm

I disagree with those who disagree with my disagreement. This is precisely why I love arguing about sports. If CC was such a stud at the plate, his OBP would have been higher than .229 and he would have slugged a great deal better than .333.

I agree that he is relatively more valuable to a National League team, but he's getting paid millions to pitch, not hit. A pitcher in the National League has more of an injury risk than an AL'er. All else equal, a switch in leagues should help his durability. Throwing against the loaded AL East rosters; well, that's another question entirely.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:11 pm

Sabathia won the Cy Young in 2007 in the AL. He was very effective without the bat in his hand and before he was on the Brewers. His age and conditioning indicates he would have a better future in the NL (most declining AL pitchers do), it doesn't mean he was/is "only good" or peaked on the Brewers. He will still be very good next year. In 4 years, maybe not.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby fisticuffs » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:09 pm

I love it. The team that just outbid us by 61 Million for our most coveted player wants us to pay part of Cameron's salary as part of the trade deal.
http://www.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/ent ... 6/12228785

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby MeatStick » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:41 pm

boston_jeff wrote:
O.J. wrote:Meat-you can not compare CC with Rocket and RJ at this stage of his career. He's much more overweight than both of them, has been overworked more than both, and is a much greater injury risk than they were at his age.


Sorry for the lateness of this post - got called out of town.

Rocket threw 1027 (and change) innings from age 24 to 27 averaging 256 innings (and change) a year.

Sabathia threw 882 (and change) innings from age 24 to 27 averaging 225 innings (and change) a year.

The Big unit didn't really start pitching until age 25, but threw over 200 innings a year ages 26 and 27.

Sabathia is big, but not a ton overweight (he's listed at 6'7"/250). Roger was always thick as well. The Unit - he's just a freak...

Clemens pitched over 200 innings 3 times since age 40 averaging 236 innings a year (162 game season) for his career.

The Big Unit has pitched over 200 innings 3 times since age 40 averaging 232 innings a year (162 game season) for his career.

I think it's a fair comparison. Bigger guys CAN be durable. CC has the tools to be a big time pitcher for a LOT of years to come.

Reference:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sabatc.01.shtml

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:08 pm

Fair enough, but bigger/durable isn't the only issue. First off, different eras. With pitch counts and what we know about pitchers' injuries, Clemens' workload would be extremely rare now. RJ is basically a rail, Clemens is beefy, but works out like a fiend and was on the juice. CC is overweight (you believe his list weight?) and isn't known for his commitment to conditioning. For his sake, I hope that changes.

Clemens didn't break down in the playoffs in '86, what happened to CC the last two years? His weight, overwork, and conditioning are factors. He could be a HOF pitcher, but not unless he changes his tune (like Clemens did at a similar stage in his career).

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby MeatStick » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:50 pm

boston_jeff wrote:Fair enough, but bigger/durable isn't the only issue. First off, different eras. With pitch counts and what we know about pitchers' injuries, Clemens' workload would be extremely rare now.

Different eras? Both the Unit and Rocket went well over 200 innings after age 40 (CC was playing). CC averages 222 innings a year. I don't get this point.

boston_jeff wrote:RJ is basically a rail, Clemens is beefy, but works out like a fiend and was on the juice. CC is overweight (you believe his list weight?) and isn't known for his commitment to conditioning. For his sake, I hope that changes.

I'll give you that.

boston_jeff wrote:Clemens didn't break down in the playoffs in '86, what happened to CC the last two years? His weight, overwork, and conditioning are factors. He could be a HOF pitcher, but not unless he changes his tune (like Clemens did at a similar stage in his career).

CC had a bad 3rd inning - no doubt about it, but as I recall it he pitched 2 games before the playoffs on 3 days rest...

I wouldn't call that a "breakdown" - I'd call that a team riding the guy that asks for the ball. He gave up 5 runs in the 3rd inning and just missed getting out of it with only a run scored (if I remember correctly).

Point is, if he had been in the normal rotation prior to the playoffs, I can't say that he would have been so ineffective in game 2 - I'll go out on a limb and say I KNOW he would have pitched better.

He was so tired leading the Brewers to the Playoffs, he had nothing much left - and I don't know a lot of pitchers that would in that scenario.

I've seen CC listed up in the 290's (more believable), and I can't say that conditioning isn't a factor with him - I just think using September 08 as an example of his supposed ineffectiveness isn't cricket if looked at more than just on paper or his performance in one inning of September.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:13 pm

The era thing is RJ/Clemens early era vs. CC's early era, sorry about that. He is a workhorse, but maybe that is part of the problem. Its an aberration for even a big-bodied power pitcher to pitch like that in this day and age. If he doesn't change his habits, he will certainly have injury problems and lose effectiveness late in the season. Being on the Yankees helps him in this area for sure.

As for last season's playoffs with MKE, I agree with you to some extent, and it wasn't like the Brewers were smacking the Phil's pitchers around. That said, he had even more problems in the 2007 playoffs in the AL. I can't remember, but I don't think he pitched as much down the stretch for CLE that year as he did for the Brewers in '08. He's real good, but RJ and Clemens won WS titles and did it for a long long time. Both are first ballot HOFers (I know I know---I'm talking about the numbers). We'll see about CC, but I'm pulling for him, even if he's a Yankee.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby MeatStick » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:24 pm

boston_jeff wrote:We'll see about CC, but I'm pulling for him, even if he's a Yankee.


That's how you spot a true sports fan, pulling for a Yankee with "Boston" in his name...

Goodonya Jeff.

I too wish him well, more to the point - I wish the Brewers could keep him. They're losing Sheets as well?

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:53 pm

Felt the same way about Mussina when they signed him. I'm also a huge fan of Ruth/Gehrig/Maris/Mantle/Billy Martin/Munson/and yeah Rivera. I think Derek Jeter's contract is too much money, but would've paid it if I was the Yanks and I would vote him first ballot into the HOF. Mattingly, not so much. And fuck Arod, no matter what team he's on.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... kas/081217

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby MeatStick » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:08 pm

boston_jeff wrote:Felt the same way about Mussina when they signed him. I'm also a huge fan of Ruth/Gehrig/Maris/Mantle/Billy Martin/Munson/and yeah Rivera. I think Derek Jeter's contract is too much money, but would've paid it if I was the Yanks and I would vote him first ballot into the HOF. Mattingly, not so much. And fuck Arod, no matter what team he's on.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... kas/081217


That article is priceless.

I heard that when CC walked into the Brewers locker room for the first time, Prince broke the ice by announcing he had an extra pair of uniform pants CC could borrow.

As for Jeter - I don't know about his contract, but he's a man you can build a team around. I love the way he plays and wish Arod had that same integrity. I too like Billy Martin, he was a great coach and not afraid to make fun of himself. Yes, I cried when Munson died.

That's the great thing about being a kid - you can root for whomever you want (I was a HUGE Reds fan), and it's OK (for the most part).

As you get older I think people start taking it too seriously, and the root of that seems to be money.

Myself, I'm a fan of excellence. I enjoy watching sports that are played well regardless of affiliation. Of course I root for the home teams - though I have to say it's been very hard to be a Bucks fan...

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby O.J. » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:52 pm

Looks like the Yankees are signing Teixeira. Why only have the three-highest paid players in baseball when you can add the fourth? Crap.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby buckyor » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:12 pm

What's gonna be really interesting is what happens when they finish in third place again. . . .

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:15 pm

The Yankees make me sick and make me hate baseball. No other professional sport allows for this kind of garbage. I don't care how much luxury tax they pay or how many people go to see them on road games. Simply buying players and championships is about the least sporting thing I can think of.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby MeatStick » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:09 pm

fisticuffs wrote:The Yankees make me sick and make me hate baseball. No other professional sport allows for this kind of garbage. I don't care how much luxury tax they pay or how many people go to see them on road games. Simply buying players and championships is about the least sporting thing I can think of.

I agree.

I know that MLB does profit share to an extent, but how can many, if any other team spend to this extent?

A lot of people make a big deal about the Rays and how they're a product of their farm system, but their success is not the norm. Montreal used to have mad young players come out of their farm system, only to get wisked away by free agency just when they started to have some success (the players - not the club).

I think the real loser in all of this is the fans. "Normal" people used to be able to take their kids to the park for a ballgame at least 3 or 4 times a summer - now that's a three hundred dollar night for a family of four - if they're frugal at the concession stands.

As with most everything, money corrupts the pure. MLB is nothing more than a whore at this point. Unfortunately it isn't the cheap bargain-basement whore that you'd find at a respectable truck stop, it's one of those high-priced escorts that Senators buy cars for.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:24 am

I´m glad the Yanks overpay for FA´s, their formula has not worked for years. Clemens is the last bloated FA to win a championship. Mussina, Arod, Giambi, Damon, nada. Let´s keep the tradition alive, I hope CC, Tex and Burnett enjoy all that money, but no glory.

Btw, I´m in Spain right now, and I don´t think there´s a salary cap on futbol. What´s Real Madrid´s payroll?


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