CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

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acereraser
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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby acereraser » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:16 pm

You made several good points, boston_jeff, and all of them add up to the Yankees making business decisions first, and baseball decisions later. The problem is, the Yankees' perspective is so skewed because of the unique market share, it is hard for the rest of us to make sense of it. And, if you like thinking about baseball strategy, unfortunately, it has no use in this situation.

I was thinking more about this, and it became apparent to me the Yankees were signing CC, and no one else had a chance. The reason is the New Yankees stadium, opening next year. They *had* to sign the biggest name to go with their new stadium, and that was that. Again, not much baseball thinking involved, but once you get past that, it makes sense. The stadium cost 1300 million dollars, so the margins involved in making CC sign were infinitesimal, in perspective.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:39 pm

Definitely, the stadium AND all the public money they want play into this deal, the 5-year Burnett offer, and impending Teixeira negotiations. They need to win now, and the fans and NYC will not buck up if they stand pat. The problem for baseball is that they have effectively outbid themselves and set the salary bar so high (in a supposedly down year for contracts). These salaries and offers will not hurt teams like Boston, the Cubs and Dodgers, but they will squeeze out middle and small market teams.

Like I said, Brad Penny for one year (fat chance after the Yanks overspent on those two guys).

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby O.J. » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:05 am

boston_jeff wrote:
acereraser wrote:
jjoyce wrote:Idiotic. A guy that big who throws that hard and pitches as deep as he does in games (how many completes did he throw for Milwaukee?) is not going to last for very long. 7 years? Ha! They'll be lucky to get five.


I don't think the length of the contract means anything, at all. I certainly don't think the Yankees expect CC to be pitching for them for the next seven years. The Yankees don't seem to negotiate, really. If they have decided they want a player, they sign them, no matter what (A-Rod). If they hesitate, it means they aren't committed to collecting that player, for whatever reason, and they let the fish get away (Santana).

It is nothing new under the sun, but worth saying once again, that the Yankees don't operate in the same manner as any other club. Their motivations are just too different.


They should have signed Santana. More talent, less money.


Huge difference: Santana wasn't a free agent. The cost in prospects scared the Yankees away, not the $$. I agree that the money and especially length of CC's contract will come back to haunt the Yankees, but it's gonna be hard to bitch about spending after the Red Sox sign Teixeira to a contract in the neighborhood of $180 million.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby O.J. » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:10 am

Looks like the Brewers are trading Cameron to the Yankees for Melky Cabrera. Yeesh. Nice salary dump, I guess.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby MeatStick » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:32 am

O.J. wrote:Looks like the Brewers are trading Cameron to the Yankees for Melky Cabrera. Yeesh. Nice salary dump, I guess.

At least it will give us an amusing name to talk about...

CC is a great pitcher, although I don't think anyone is worth 161 million.

CC has a opt-out after year 3.

As far as how big he is and how deep he throws, The Rocket and The Big Unit are recent examples of big guys being effective into their late 30's and even early 40's.

Anyway, good for CC. The Yankees continue their bid to throw money at veterans rather than developing players (like the Ray and Sox). They might be good again this year, but it's a tough division - hopefully CC will do well.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby O.J. » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:38 am

It sounds like the Yankees want to expand the Cameron-Cabrera trade and also pick up Billy Hall.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby Marvell » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:48 am

Another aspect of this - going back to the AL takes the bat out of his hands for all but a handful of interleague games next year. Given what a psychological weapon Sabathia's batting was for the Crew, this is not an insignificant dent in his effectiveness; I would argue that it's essentially the equivalent of saying you can no longer pitch a slider.

Yet another reason I think this was a dumb move for both parties involved. Sabathia's agent can't be faulted for going for the maximum payday, I suppose - but I think he just shortened CC's career by a good two to five years.

Penny wise - pound foolish.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby O.J. » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:05 pm

I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Marvell. After losing last year's ace(Wang) due to an injury sustained while running the bases in an interleague game, I could pretty much guarantee that the Yankees are in no rush to put the bat in CC's hands. Yes, he's relatively more valuable to an NL team due to his hitting skills, but it makes more sense that it would prolong his career by DH'ing for him.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:30 pm

O.J. wrote:Huge difference: Santana wasn't a free agent. The cost in prospects scared the Yankees away, not the $$. I agree that the money and especially length of CC's contract will come back to haunt the Yankees, but it's gonna be hard to bitch about spending after the Red Sox sign Teixeira to a contract in the neighborhood of $180 million.


That's true, but Phil Hughes was one of those prospects. In general, they overvalued those prospects, and are overpaying now. Aside from Joba, who have the Yankees not traded away in the past ten years?

The CC deal is not the whole issue anyway. I would argue that the major problem with the franchise is that they are having trouble attracting FAs for the first time in their history. They had to overbid their own offer to get CC. And the Yanks have not stopped at CC, they also have an offer (5 years) for barely .500 Burnett. And I heard the Yankees AM radio guy saying (with a straight face) that he wouldn't be surprised if after signing CC and Burnett, they try to sign Sheets or Lowe as well. Thats an all-star team.

If the RS sign Teixeira (more like 200+ mil), it will be a drop in the bucket compared to what the Yankees are trying to do. The RS and others (Cubs, Dodgers, Mets) have made high profile FA acquisitions, but no team has tried to buy their way to a title in the history of sport like the Yankees have (historically, but esp. this hot stove season). In a bad economic market, they have caved to the agents/players, and the ridonkulous salaries will have an adverse effect on the small and middle market teams.

Teams like the RS will be fine. They have the cash to make the occasional splash with a premier FA acquisition (Manny, Dice-K) or big signing after a trade (Beckett), and as a top 5 payroll can absorb middle of the road FAs like Lugo and Drew even if they flame out in Boston. Their player development (like the Brewers) is so good they can make the occasional mistake. Unfortunately, small-middle market teams have to be almost perfect with their development/acquisitions because they lack payroll flexibility. This will be even more difficult (especially in the pitching market) after this deal, and the multitude of offers the Spanks will put on the table this off-season.

Meat-you can not compare CC with Rocket and RJ at this stage of his career. He's much more overweight than both of them, has been overworked more than both, and is a much greater injury risk than they were at his age.

Marvell-The batting thing means very little (agree with OJ). He would have been better in the NL because there is no DH and the hitters are generally weaker. Check out his numbers in the AL, especially in clutch and playoff situations. I don't doubt that he will be very good as a teammate and as a pitcher in NY, but he would have been better in the NL.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby O.J. » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:50 pm

boston_jeff wrote: The RS and others (Cubs, Dodgers, Mets) have made high profile FA acquisitions, but no team has tried to buy their way to a title in the history of sport like the Yankees have (historically, but esp. this hot stove season). In a bad economic market, they have pitcher in NY, but he would have been better in the NL.


Maybe not in absolute dollar terms, but I don't think you're giving the '97 Marlins their due.

I agree with pretty much everything else, especially with the Yankees recent difficulties in attracting free agents.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby boston_jeff » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:55 pm

True, they did make a run for it, and dismantle, which is probably even worse for their fans. I am not so sure the Yanks don't go after Teix as well and overbid again...the best justice would be if they continue to lose.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby minicat » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:32 pm

I'm down with Hall going with Cameron. It gets rid of a lot of strikeouts, a big chunk of cash and a bad attitude (at least last season) with Hall. But they need to get a heck of a lot more than Melky (I'm Not Better Than Tony Gwynn who the Brewers Already Won't Give a Chance) Cabrera.

Take that money and sign Adam Dunn and Oliver Perez.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby keelio » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:50 pm

I don't believe Sabathia will again produce at the level he did during his brief stint with Milwaukee, and I appreciate seeing him perform at his peak and contribute mightily during the run up to the playoffs. He gave the Brewers a taste of the limelight and maybe they'll be hungry for more. If the core of the Brewer lineup matures in terms of plate discipline, I wonder if you truly need that high-priced FA #1 starter. Sure, you gain legitimacy on paper, but if you've got solid, if mediocre, starters and reliable options in the bullpen - wouldn't the everyday guys have greater bearing on success through the entire season? Maybe an exceptional closer and decent set-up from the bull-pen would be of higher value than that #1 starter. Maybe the young guys liked their brief foray into post season ball and will be all the more dedicated and productive next season. If the team has offensive consistency, you don't need a pitcher with a 1.85 ERA - the 3.5's will do fine.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby Marvell » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:23 pm

I'm going to have to disagree with those who disagreed with me. Sabathia's prowess at the plate was a fundamental reason for his effectiveness last year, in that having a dangerous bat in the pitcher/9-spot creates a huge structural advantage for the team.

It removes the dillema of having to pinch hit for a pitcher who's pitching effectively because the offense is having trouble getting on the board. Similarly, it puts a disproportionate strain on the opposing pitching - not being able to coast through that ninth batter every other inning makes it that more unlikely that your starting pitcher will be able to make it into the 5th inning and beyond, and puts a disproportionate strain on the opposing team's middle relief - the weakest part of pretty much every MLB team's roster.

So - a huge part of Sabathia's effectiveness came about precisely because he was such a stud at the plate. A DH won't extend CC's career at all if he starts to suck - and he's much less likely to start sucking in the NL.

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Re: CC A Yankee? Say it ain't so....

Postby Marvell » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:25 pm

keelio wrote:If the core of the Brewer lineup matures in terms of plate discipline, I wonder if you truly need that high-priced FA #1 starter. Sure, you gain legitimacy on paper, but if you've got solid, if mediocre, starters and reliable options in the bullpen - wouldn't the everyday guys have greater bearing on success through the entire season? Maybe an exceptional closer and decent set-up from the bull-pen would be of higher value than that #1 starter.


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