Brewers Going to the Playoffs

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boston_jeff
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Postby boston_jeff » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:58 pm

Sure, but the team is the issue. Yost didn't use anyone effective as a closer or a leadoff man because there wasn't anyone who could step up. That's on Melvin, not him. He said as much about the non-signing of Coco in his press conference. Small market fans love to point to the non-signing of closers as brilliant payroll management, but with Coco this team is in the playoffs. If you're going to spend money on guys like Gagne, Riske, Mota, and Torres and hope something sticks, why not sign the closer?

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Postby MeatStick » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:13 am

boston_jeff wrote:If you're going to spend money on guys like Gagne, Riske, Mota, and Torres and hope something sticks, why not sign the closer?


Wasn't Gagne signed to BE a closer?

I'm not arguing the fact that the front office has made some bonehead moves, but the Brewers' slide can be attributed to more than just pitching. They're not hitting that much either.

Repeatedly going to Gagne in tight situations (which he promptly screws up) is ON Yost. Not motivating the players to perform is ON Yost.

Yost needed to go, and has needed to go for a couple years.

I do agree with the leadoff hitter issue though, RW isn't getting it done at bat or on the field (horrible defensively).

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Postby boston_jeff » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:00 am

MeatStick wrote:
boston_jeff wrote:If you're going to spend money on guys like Gagne, Riske, Mota, and Torres and hope something sticks, why not sign the closer?


Wasn't Gagne signed to BE a closer?

I'm not arguing the fact that the front office has made some bonehead moves, but the Brewers' slide can be attributed to more than just pitching. They're not hitting that much either.

Repeatedly going to Gagne in tight situations (which he promptly screws up) is ON Yost. Not motivating the players to perform is ON Yost.

Yost needed to go, and has needed to go for a couple years.

I do agree with the leadoff hitter issue though, RW isn't getting it done at bat or on the field (horrible defensively).


Yes, and even after the terrible performance he put up last year, they signed him to be the closer. GM's fault. How can you sign that group of ragtag relievers and not sign your own guy? 10 mil to Gagne, millions more to ineffective Riske, Mota and Torres. Melvin should have signed Coco is my point (he agrees). They would be in the playoffs. With the second best record in the NL, the Brewers only needed a little more run production and a solid closer. When Yost went to guys other than Gagne, did they step up and do the job? Sometimes, but not consistently. Who is going to bat leadoff for your fantasy team? Nobody.

Again, if a manager has no one to go to, how can you blame him? You can't, and Melvin himself said as much in his press conference. So who's right, you or Melvin? Ned Yost had to go because someone had to be blamed if they fail to make the playoffs, and they hope that maybe just maybe this will inspire some sort of resurgence for the last two weeks. Yost managed them into a contending team with the second best record in the league. Look at the numbers before and after he began here. In what universe does that translate to "he has needed to go for a couple of years"? Melvin can be credited with building the Brewers into a contender, and I certainly don't want to see him fired. But blaming Yost for this team's failures is a scapegoating and Melvin knows it. Somebody had to go, but it isn't going to change a single thing.

Yost will be better off next year, the Brewers will not. They still have no leadoff man, no closer, and if they miss out on the playoffs, I doubt that CC or Sheets will re-sign. Hiring someone like Randolph or Showalter will make the fans/media feel good for a few weeks until the season starts up and they start blowing games again.

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Postby MeatStick » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:41 am

I agree with most of what you say, but the truth is the Brewers have a lot of talent and aren't performing to their potential.

Yost is certainly the scapegoat, and in my opinion rightly so.

The GM isn't going to fire himself, and it looks as if the owner has sided with the GM.

Yost may be a good Manager, but I honestly haven't seen it - he's managed them into contention this year in spite of himself, not because he's a good manager. With the talent the Brewers have acquired in recent years, they had to improve.

The Brewers have been doing well this season, now they're not - what has changed? The talent is the same (even better with CC), so who's to blame for the Brewers blowing a 5 game lead in the WC?

Yost.

I like the guy and hope he does well elsewhere, but it's time for change (please excuse the Obama-esque comment).

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Postby Right Bower » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:02 am

MeatStick wrote:I agree with most of what you say, but the truth is the Brewers have a lot of talent and aren't performing to their potential.

Yost is certainly the scapegoat, and in my opinion rightly so.

The GM isn't going to fire himself, and it looks as if the owner has sided with the GM.

Yost may be a good Manager, but I honestly haven't seen it - he's managed them into contention this year in spite of himself, not because he's a good manager. With the talent the Brewers have acquired in recent years, they had to improve.

The Brewers have been doing well this season, now they're not - what has changed? The talent is the same (even better with CC), so who's to blame for the Brewers blowing a 5 game lead in the WC?

Yost.

I like the guy and hope he does well elsewhere, but it's time for change (please excuse the Obama-esque comment).


Yep, I agree. This move proves to me that the Brewers understand the window of opportunity is now, and Yost wasn't getting the job done. His laid back, no yelling, things will work themselves out attitude toward player management has not worked in the month of September when wins are absolutely necessary.

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Postby boston_jeff » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:15 am

They are really talented, I hope that Dale Sveum's supreme skills of motivation rub off on them. Seriously, Yost may not be a great motivator (I have no idea), and for that, I guess you can hang this one on him. The fact is, the Brewers have improved since he began managing them, and they have the second best record in the league right now. You can say that this happened in spite of Yost, but his numbers as a manager don't lie.

Some of the blame has to go to the players who have choked, and the front office for hoping their approach would work (closer-by-committee, low run production/reliance on the longball). Melvin deserves a mulligan because he has done some pretty good things, but "this is the year" as they say. Its only going to get worse next season, unless he can pull off some amazing off-season moves. Let's hope he does.

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Postby boston_jeff » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:16 am

Right Bower wrote:
MeatStick wrote:I agree with most of what you say, but the truth is the Brewers have a lot of talent and aren't performing to their potential.

Yost is certainly the scapegoat, and in my opinion rightly so.

The GM isn't going to fire himself, and it looks as if the owner has sided with the GM.

Yost may be a good Manager, but I honestly haven't seen it - he's managed them into contention this year in spite of himself, not because he's a good manager. With the talent the Brewers have acquired in recent years, they had to improve.

The Brewers have been doing well this season, now they're not - what has changed? The talent is the same (even better with CC), so who's to blame for the Brewers blowing a 5 game lead in the WC?

Yost.

I like the guy and hope he does well elsewhere, but it's time for change (please excuse the Obama-esque comment).


Yep, I agree. This move proves to me that the Brewers understand the window of opportunity is now, and Yost wasn't getting the job done. His laid back, no yelling, things will work themselves out attitude toward player management has not worked in the month of September when wins are absolutely necessary.


I can't wait to see Sveum "yelling."

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Postby Right Bower » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:29 am

boston_jeff wrote:
Right Bower wrote:
MeatStick wrote:I agree with most of what you say, but the truth is the Brewers have a lot of talent and aren't performing to their potential.

Yost is certainly the scapegoat, and in my opinion rightly so.

The GM isn't going to fire himself, and it looks as if the owner has sided with the GM.

Yost may be a good Manager, but I honestly haven't seen it - he's managed them into contention this year in spite of himself, not because he's a good manager. With the talent the Brewers have acquired in recent years, they had to improve.

The Brewers have been doing well this season, now they're not - what has changed? The talent is the same (even better with CC), so who's to blame for the Brewers blowing a 5 game lead in the WC?

Yost.

I like the guy and hope he does well elsewhere, but it's time for change (please excuse the Obama-esque comment).


Yep, I agree. This move proves to me that the Brewers understand the window of opportunity is now, and Yost wasn't getting the job done. His laid back, no yelling, things will work themselves out attitude toward player management has not worked in the month of September when wins are absolutely necessary.


I can't wait to see Sveum "yelling."


Interim is the word I think they used to describe Sveum. I don't give a shit what he does, I've already prepared myself mentally for the Brewers to not make the playoffs. What I do know is that I'm glad the move was made. I don't buy the "there's always next year" approach. I'm impatient and demand instant gratification, and that's what I got delivered to me yesterday.

I'll deal with next season next season.

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Postby MeatStick » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:37 pm

Right Bower wrote:I'll deal with next season next season.


Amen, this is the first season in a LOT of seasons the Brewers aren't looking to next season.

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Postby boston_jeff » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm

I hope this season is salvageable, we'll find out tonight. I still have slim hopes of a Red Sox/Brewers WS :D , but I guess the Cubs/Dodgers/Phils would be fun too. Fuck the Mets.

Next hot stove and regular season will be very interesting for the Brewers.

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Postby MeatStick » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:51 pm

boston_jeff wrote:I hope this season is salvageable, we'll find out tonight. I still have slim hopes of a Red Sox/Brewers WS :D , but I guess the Cubs/Dodgers/Phils would be fun too. Fuck the Mets.

Next hot stove and regular season will be very interesting for the Brewers.


I like the Red Sox as well, but am wary of those Angels... and Rays

I'll miss the Yankees in the playoffs though (just to see them get beat by the Sox of course).

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Postby boston_jeff » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:12 pm

Yeah, definitely. Its not the same with the Yanks out of the pennant race, but its nice to see the Rays in the mix. I think that the Red Sox need to win the division to really have a shot at defending. That way, they play the Central winner in the ALDS (can't play the Rays). They have been real hot lately, and just need to get some guys healthy to contend with the Angels who they have owned in the postseason. But, I would rather play them in a 7 game series if we don't have homefield advantage. We'll see what happens.

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Postby minicat » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:02 pm

boston_jeff wrote:Sure, but the team is the issue. Yost didn't use anyone effective as a closer or a leadoff man because there wasn't anyone who could step up. That's on Melvin, not him. He said as much about the non-signing of Coco in his press conference. Small market fans love to point to the non-signing of closers as brilliant payroll management, but with Coco this team is in the playoffs. If you're going to spend money on guys like Gagne, Riske, Mota, and Torres and hope something sticks, why not sign the closer?


Torres, in part of a season as closer: 27 saves, 7 blown, 2.68 ERA.
Cordero, full season: 31 saves, 6 blown, 3.26 ERA.

How, exactly, is the closer the problem with this team? Even if you add in Gagme's blown saves? The problem is the utterly dysfunctional offense.

Yes, Gagne shouldn't have been signed as closer (or, for the love of god, Riske) - it was a panic move, pure and simple. And neither should have Cordero. Melvin got one of those decisions right.

Yost also got a decision right by yanking Gagne pretty quickly and installing Torres, who's done fine. However, the rest of his bullpen management has been as suspect as ever. Is it his fault they're in the current slump? Not so much. Is it likely firing him is gonna pull them out? Depends on if Attanasio has secret info that the team had quit on Yost, which I doubt. If they haven't, they aren't likely to magically wake up from their buddy getting axed in the back.

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Postby boston_jeff » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:34 pm

Thats true, but seven blown saves (out of 34) is a lot. Add Gagne's (also 7) and the rest of the bullpen's (Riske 5, Mota 2) woes, and you have part of the Brewer's problem as I see it. Coco is converting about 84% of saves. Torres converts a little under 80% which is great for a scrap heap pickup, but if you factor in the blown saves of Gagne and the others, its got to be much much lower as a team. If Cordero was on this team converting 84% (not stellar but better than the closer-by-committee approach) all year they are in the playoffs, no? You may not like paying closer money, and his stats may not be all-star level this year, but I think Coco would have converted enough of those saves (21 blown between the 4 guys mentioned) statistically to push them over the hump.

Middle relief is also a problem, but almost every team has their issues with middle relief. I agree that the hitting being very one-dimensional is def. a huge part of it too.

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Postby supaunknown » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:03 pm

My suspician is that Attanasio vividly remembered the Yost/Brewers meltdown during the critical stretch last year and saw it all repeating itself again this year. With all the moo he's spent on this year's Crew I can't fault him for firing Yost. It's a last ditch power move to hopefully spark a run to the playoffs.


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