Is it fair to call Phelps greatest olympic athlete

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Veeder
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Postby Veeder » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:17 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Way back in the mid-Sixties, I had dorm mates who were on various UW teams: football, baseball and crew. Those out for crew were the true athletes.


I agree. I rowed for a year. I can tell you that we practiced way harder and longer than any other sports team at the collegiate level (hence the single year).

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Postby boston_jeff » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:23 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Way back in the mid-Sixties, I had dorm mates who were on various UW teams: football, baseball and crew. Those out for crew were the true athletes.


I could see that, but can you name one crew guy that you would call the best athlete out there? Can you even name one famous rower? My vote is for Rob Lowe in Oxford Blues, he could really fucking skull!

These debates are supposed to be fun, not a lameass contest about which obscure sport/olympic event is most physically grueling.

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Postby Shipley » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:28 pm

Ducatista wrote:
Shipley wrote:This seems all very subjective and boring.

Ha, this from a video game guy. (No disrespect, it just struck me as funny.)


None taken, but I get your point. I'll be the first to agree my contributions to this pub, as well as its content are pretty superflous.

I guess I was declaring the debate on if he's the greatest or who even counts as an athlete boring. Sports are still fun, even if I prefer something more interactive, (though if you catch me watching MLG video of Halo champions, you can call me a hypocrite too!) :wink:

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Postby Ducatista » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:01 pm

boston_jeff wrote:Can you even name one famous rower?

Off the top of my head: Xeno Muller.

Rowers are all-around monsters, no doubt... and crew requires a great deal of finesse and teamwork, not just brute force.

Still, to me, the coordinated strategy of team sports like basketball and hockey gives their athletes the edge against athletes who compete against a clock or a scale or a tape measure (or against themselves, as some put it).

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Re: Is it fair to call Phelps greatest olympic athlete

Postby supaunknown » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:20 pm

boston_jeff wrote:Hockey players shift lines, hoops players not so much.

They really are very similar sports. Have you played both to compare?

There's slightly more down time in basketball, and I'd say hockey generally maintains more perpetual motion. Just keeping possession of the puck and scoring is obviously much more difficult in hockey - as evidenced by the average scoring between the two sports.

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Postby boston_jeff » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:24 pm

Werd. The whole team vs. individual vs. time issue you bring up is very interesting. I think its all about doing something no one else can do and winning consistently, regardless. We were talking about who is the best athlete, not what sport/game is the most athletic, weren't we?

I also think this is becoming about poo-pooing sports some deem less athletic, and inserting obscure endurance sports into the dialogue. Its kind of like people who discuss the best rock music who cite bands like Kraftwerk or Can.

I like those bands, and I respect triathletes et al., but the debate becomes less fun when it gets really obscure and we're getting away from the original question. How about them Brewers?

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Re: Is it fair to call Phelps greatest olympic athlete

Postby boston_jeff » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:33 pm

supaunknown wrote:
boston_jeff wrote:Hockey players shift lines, hoops players not so much.

They really are very similar sports. Have you played both to compare?

There's slightly more down time in basketball, and I'd say hockey generally maintains more perpetual motion. Just keeping possession of the puck and scoring is obviously much more difficult in hockey - as evidenced by the average scoring between the two sports.


What I'm saying is that the amount of time the average hoops player runs up and down the court in one game is probably greater than the amount of ice time a hockey player logs (with the line shifting). And they have skates that help them gain speed. Hoops has more stoppages of play for sure. I think hockey has the lowest proportion of physically unfit players of the 4 major sports, those guys are great athletes. But I wouldn't say that hockey players work physically harder on the ice than soccer players on the field or hoops players on the court.

Possession and scoring is much harder in hockey, I agree. That goalie and those sticks don't help at all. Never played anything more than pond hockey, but have followed the NHL and college hockey for years.

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Postby MeatStick » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:37 am

boston_jeff wrote:athlete-a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina.

You just proved to me that golfers aren't athletes because they play golf. Golf requires none of those attributes - other than having to walk 3 or 4 miles at a medium pace with multiple rests in between over a period of 4 to 6 hours. PGA golfers require mental toughness, and a swing they can duplicate over and over - 50 some times a round (leaving the putts out - different "swing").

So again, for the slow and special - Tiger may be a great athlete, but his exceptional golfing skill doesn't automatically make him so.

As for golf being a sport, no one here will convince me it is - and I'm not alone.

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Postby MeatStick » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:12 am

O.J. wrote:MeatStick, even though I don't believe it to be true, it's reaonable to make a case for tri-athletes being the best athletes, just not the most well-rounded. Pretend that a brand new sport was just invented and that this required participants to utilize practically every conceivable notion of athleticism to be successful. You honestly think a tri-athlete, rather than a decathlete, would be best prepared to handle such a task?


I think right out of the box a world class Triathlete could at least compete in every event in a decathalon (the pole vault might be tricky) - I didn't say win, or even do well in every event - but they could compete. Lots of decathletes have one or even two discliplines they don't do well in.

I'm not sure there are many decathletes that could finish an Ironman (some might not make it through the first phase - the 2.4 mile open water swim), just because of the way they train. Decathletes train mostly for speed and power, which is why most of them can't run the 1,500 very well. Explosive speed and power to throw things long distances. Endurance plays a very small part in being a decathlete.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/decath/

You know what? Who cares? As long as we can agree that Golfers aren't the best athletes, I'm cool with that.

Deal?

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Postby boston_jeff » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:07 am

MeatStick wrote:
boston_jeff wrote:athlete-a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina.

You just proved to me that golfers aren't athletes because they play golf. Golf requires none of those attributes - other than having to walk 3 or 4 miles at a medium pace with multiple rests in between over a period of 4 to 6 hours. PGA golfers require mental toughness, and a swing they can duplicate over and over - 50 some times a round (leaving the putts out - different "swing").

So again, for the slow and special - Tiger may be a great athlete, but his exceptional golfing skill doesn't automatically make him so.

As for golf being a sport, no one here will convince me it is - and I'm not alone.


And you've just proven to me that you can not read or understand simple English. The definition says "physical strength" (required to hit the drives that pros hit), and "agility" (required to make the other shots). And playing as many holes of golf over the entire tournament as they do, requires some endurance. Show me a weak, clumsy person who can play the sport as well as a PGA player. You can't, and if you don't understand that, then you are slow and special. Any fat guy in a beer league can hit a dinger, but only the best ballplayers can hit a 99 mph fastball. You can't seem to grasp this concept.

I don't even play golf and I realize that what professional golfers do requires strength and agility. A swing that they duplicate over and over...sounds like skills from all sports. Something that has to be performed perfectly over and over with multiple minor adjustments required for specific situations. On average, they may not be the most strong or agile, but they are indeed athletes.

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Postby wallrock » Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:32 am

Meatstick wrote:I think right out of the box a world class Triathlete could at least compete in every event in a decathalon (the pole vault might be tricky) - I didn't say win, or even do well in every event - but they could compete. Lots of decathletes have one or even two discliplines they don't do well in.

I'm not sure there are many decathletes that could finish an Ironman (some might not make it through the first phase - the 2.4 mile open water swim), just because of the way they train. Decathletes train mostly for speed and power, which is why most of them can't run the 1,500 very well. Explosive speed and power to throw things long distances. Endurance plays a very small part in being a decathlete.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/decath/


There's no way that a straight-up endurance athlete could be dropped into a skill-based competition and be expected to even complete, let alone compete in, the assorted events. A marathon runner is not going to handle hurdles too well, let alone a swimmer with the shot putt.

Overall the argument is a bit arbitrary, because it's all a matter of the weight you assign to the different categories of athleticism as demonstrated in the chart in your link. I personally would rate them all about the same, so I can see why the decathlon winner is called the "World's Greatest Athlete." But if endurance is the be all, end all then ultra-marathoner or triathletes or maybe that Korean dude that played video games for 36 straight hours would be tops.

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Postby MeatStick » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:57 pm

boston_jeff wrote:I don't even play golf...


I never would have guessed (yes, that's sarcasm).

The rest of your retarded post just gave all Wii players an orgasm.

Triathletes and decathletes are... athletes. I've never heard anyone say they're gonna play more golf as they need to get in [physical] shape.

I'm sure Tiger is an athlete, and have stated so (just that because he plays golf - doesn't automatically make him an athlete). In fact I'll go so far as to say that Tiger actually trains athletically (doing things other than just playing/practicing golf) to get in shape and play better golf.

Phil Mickleson has a set of titties that would make most highschool girls jealous, yet he competes, and even beats Tiger. Is he then more athletic than Tiger? Please say "no."

I DO play golf and have for quite awhile, I actually hit the ball harder and farther back then as I was tall, lean, and flexible. My clubhead speed back then was around 113 mph. Now I'm much bigger and stronger, but admittedly a lot less flexible - 108 mph.

You don't have to be big and strong to hit the ball a long way, the fact that you think so shows that you have no idea of what you speak. Hitting a ball far is a very small part of golf. Chipping and putting makes a golfer.

So why again are you arguing a point you admittedly have no experience in?

Here's a link - it's stupid, but it seems you might require visual aids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv3WsAj0aVY

Now, I'm through with you. I'm gonna go workout before dinner, maybe play nine holes, throw a game or two of darts, finish up with some 9 ball (maybe a game of jacks) - you know, feel the burn...

Moron.

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Postby MeatStick » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:35 pm

wallrock wrote:There's no way that a straight-up endurance athlete could be dropped into a skill-based competition and be expected to even complete, let alone compete in, the assorted events.

Some decathletes don’t even complete all of the events - some foot fault (Javelin, discus) or fail to even clear the starting height (pole vault is an example).

Most any athlete can throw an object (though admittedly some further than others). A triathlete should be able to clear 10 hurdles, though admittedly not as well as those that train on them day in and day out.

I didn’t say that triathletes would win a decathlon, just that they could compete (albeit not too well) and complete most, if not all of the events.

Would a triathlete be able to compete in the Olympics? No. No way they could attain the Olympic standard for the Decathlon by just trying once. Could a decathlete compete in an Ironman? No. No way they would qualify for it by just trying once. I’ll be there’s decathletes that can’t even swim.

wallrock wrote:Overall the argument is a bit arbitrary, because it's all a matter of the weight you assign to the different categories of athleticism as demonstrated in the chart in your link. I personally would rate them all about the same, so I can see why the decathlon winner is called the "World's Greatest Athlete."


I could too. Just that I tend to see someone that swims, runs, and bikes as well rounded. Running, jumping, and throwing a variety of objects is good, but all done on land, not really in the “mainstreamâ€Â

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Postby O.J. » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:44 pm

MeatStick wrote:
Most any athlete can throw an object


You obviously missed the Carl Lewis video I posted.

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Postby boston_jeff » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:49 pm

MeatStick wrote:
boston_jeff wrote:I don't even play golf...


I never would have guessed (yes, that's sarcasm).

The rest of your retarded post just gave all Wii players an orgasm.

Triathletes and decathletes are... athletes. I've never heard anyone say they're gonna play more golf as they need to get in [physical] shape.

I'm sure Tiger is an athlete, and have stated so (just that because he plays golf - doesn't automatically make him an athlete). In fact I'll go so far as to say that Tiger actually trains athletically (doing things other than just playing/practicing golf) to get in shape and play better golf.

Phil Mickleson has a set of titties that would make most highschool girls jealous, yet he competes, and even beats Tiger. Is he then more athletic than Tiger? Please say "no."

I DO play golf and have for quite awhile, I actually hit the ball harder and farther back then as I was tall, lean, and flexible. My clubhead speed back then was around 113 mph. Now I'm much bigger and stronger, but admittedly a lot less flexible - 108 mph.

You don't have to be big and strong to hit the ball a long way, the fact that you think so shows that you have no idea of what you speak. Hitting a ball far is a very small part of golf. Chipping and putting makes a golfer.

So why again are you arguing a point you admittedly have no experience in?

Here's a link - it's stupid, but it seems you might require visual aids...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv3WsAj0aVY

Now, I'm through with you. I'm gonna go workout before dinner, maybe play nine holes, throw a game or two of darts, finish up with some 9 ball (maybe a game of jacks) - you know, feel the burn...

Moron.


Agreed, I'm done with you too. Again, you ignore the point that PGA level golf requires athletic strength and agility, and yes endurance. Your comment about getting in shape through athletics proves that you continue to miss the point of what the definition lays out for you. Its about playing a sport, a game, OR an exercise using strength, agility, OR endurance. If we apply the laws of logic, any person who plays a game that requires even a little bit of agility can call themselves an athlete. Your definition is your own, and hey if that helps you win the argument in your mind, that's fine.


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