Tolerance message from United Church of Christ censored

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Do think messages of tolerance and inclusion should be censored?

Yes, we need censorship for freedom.
2
8%
Yes, censorship is the price of civility.
0
No votes
Yes, only religious views of bigotry and prejudice should be allowed
7
28%
No. We love our freedom.
16
64%
 
Total votes: 25

white_rabbit
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Postby white_rabbit » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:18 pm

bubbaquimby wrote:
Ducatista wrote:
bubbaquimby wrote:I am fine with gay marriage as far as making it legal but I don't want my church making it acceptable.

Why the hell not? I have yet to hear ANY basis for this sentiment that doesn't arise from "eeeeeeeeyew." How fucking stupid.


This is why people are upset about gay marriage, because even when someone respects the separation of church and state, you cannot respect my right to have a church that doesn't believe in it.


There has never been anyone arguing that any church should be forced to perform gay marriages, if that is what you are insinuating.

Does one religion have the right to force their irrational beliefs and discrimination on those who don't believe in their dogma?

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Postby bubbaquimby » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:28 pm

ShaneDog wrote:
bubbaquimby wrote:
Ducatista wrote:
bubbaquimby wrote:I am fine with gay marriage as far as making it legal but I don't want my church making it acceptable.

Why the hell not? I have yet to hear ANY basis for this sentiment that doesn't arise from "eeeeeeeeyew." How fucking stupid.

This is why people are upset about gay marriage, because even when someone respects the separation of church and state, you cannot respect my right to have a church that doesn't believe in it.

I don't think you understand what gay marriage / civil marriage equality advocates are asking for. No one has ever proposed that churches have to marry gay people, even if gay marriage is legalized. When gay marriage is legalized, and it will be, only churches that agree with it will perform gay marriages.


I don't think you understand what I have been saying, I understand it and I AGREE with it. But having people say I am fucking stupid because I don't want it in my church is very harmful to gay marriage advocates. It gives the perception that the agenda is to have churches perform it in their church. I know that is not the agenda, but like I said it doesn't help your goals when people call you fucking stupid who actually agree with you.

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Postby ShaneDog » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:33 pm

bubbaquimby wrote:I don't think you understand what I have been saying, I understand it and I AGREE with it. But having people say I am fucking stupid because I don't want it in my church is very harmful to gay marriage advocates. It gives the perception that the agenda is to have churches perform it in their church. I know that is not the agenda, but like I said it doesn't help your goals when people call you fucking stupid who actually agree with you.

OK, my bad. I wasn't aware that anyone was saying that you are stupid becuase you don't want it in your church.

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Postby Ducatista » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:35 pm

bubbaquimby wrote:This is why people are upset about gay marriage, because even when someone respects the separation of church and state, you cannot respect my right to have a church that doesn't believe in it.

Sorry, that doesn't track. This is why you should be upset about ME, not about gay marriage. As a straight woman ten years into wedded bliss, I'm not a good target for your moral outrage. Yes, you have the right to want a church that gets its undies in a twist about gay marriage. And I have the right not to respect you for it.

I get pretty testy about this topic. I guess it's the complete nonsensical nature of the anti-gay stance that I find so offensive. But in the interest of neighborliness, I'll tone down the hostility and respectfully submit to anti-gay-marriage folks:

Relax. You're threatened by bogeymen of your OWN CREATION, and you can make them go away if you're willing to let go of your scary fiction. The dire pictures you've conjured up of how gay marriage would ravage society aren't real. You made them up. Why are you so invested in clinging to them? They obviously cause you a great deal of distress, and it's so unnecessary. Unhealthy, even.

How about this. If Canadian society somehow manages to survive the assault of legalized gay marriage, then will you reevaluate your position, for your own good and the good of society? Please?

It's family, people! It's love, it's commitment, it's mutual support ââ?‰?Â

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Postby bubbaquimby » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:37 pm

white_rabbit wrote:There has never been anyone arguing that any church should be forced to perform gay marriages, if that is what you are insinuating.
Does one religion have the right to force their irrational beliefs and discrimination on those who don't believe in their dogma?


Well if you read my whole post, you would understand my position. No I never insinuated that, but people might see it that way by having the ad. But that isn't the reason that I think it shouldn't be on the air, I think it should be. However I think the networks have the right to not air it.

No, one religion doesn't have the right to push their beliefs on people, I also don't think that secularists should push their beliefs on people either. Let people decide on their own what they want to believe in.

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Postby bubbaquimby » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:50 pm

Ducatista wrote:
bubbaquimby wrote:This is why people are upset about gay marriage, because even when someone respects the separation of church and state, you cannot respect my right to have a church that doesn't believe in it.

Sorry, that doesn't track. This is why you should be upset about ME, not about gay marriage. As a straight woman ten years into wedded bliss, I'm not a good target for your moral outrage. Yes, you have the right to want a church that gets its undies in a twist about gay marriage. And I have the right not to respect you for it.

I get pretty testy about this topic. I guess it's the complete nonsensical nature of the anti-gay stance that I find so offensive. But in the interest of neighborliness, I'll tone down the hostility and respectfully submit to anti-gay-marriage folks:

Relax. You're threatened by bogeymen of your OWN CREATION, and you can make them go away if you're willing to let go of your scary fiction. The dire pictures you've conjured up of how gay marriage would ravage society aren't real. You made them up. Why are you so invested in clinging to them? They obviously cause you a great deal of distress, and it's so unnecessary. Unhealthy, even.

How about this. If Canadian society somehow manages to survive the assault of legalized gay marriage, then will you reevaluate your position, for your own good and the good of society? Please?

It's family, people! It's love, it's commitment, it's mutual support ââ?‰?Â
Last edited by bubbaquimby on Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Chuck_Schick » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:54 pm

bubbaquimby wrote:Let people decide on their own what they want to believe in.

Right on. Unfortunately, the Religious Right doesn't agree with your laissez-faire approach.

If religious folks don't want me belittling their beliefs then they should keep them the fuck out of my face. That means no prayer in public schools, no Ten Commandments in the courthouse, and no restraints on my intellectual freedom to study generally accepted scientific theories just because they don't jibe with what the Bible says.

But that's not how it is. Those of us who have decided we aren't buying what Christianity is offering are the ones up against the wall in this country. And yeah, we'll push back before we're force fed the Eucharist, but to pretend we started this dogmatic tug o' war is pure horseshit. The unbelievers are the ones trying to shore-up the wall between church and state, while the Right would have it erode entirely. In other words, the godless are standing with the founders on this one. And to paint our attempts to preserve the country's constitutional sanity as an attack on religion is to engage in hyperbolic paranoid propaganda of the most disingenuous sort.

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Postby Ducatista » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:05 pm

bubbaquimby wrote:Do you even read other people's posts our just pick and choose certain lines and then make horribly inaccurate assumptions about other people on this forum. For the like 10th time, I AM NOT AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE. Is that clear enough for you. I don't want it in my church.

For like the 2nd time, why don't you want it in your church?

bubbaquimby wrote:Then you make some canned essay about why gays should have legal marriage.

What the... I've felt this way for a long time but have never summarized it before. So what's canned? Maybe I should've tossed in a few more typos to accentuate the freshness.

bubbaquimby wrote:So no I don't respect you are any comments you make on this board because you don't fully understand what people are saying or even want to understand.

Of course, I never expected or suggested that you did. Nothing wrong with a little mutual disrespect regarding a volatile issue.

I used you as a springboard to address anti-gay-mariage folks in general because of your not wanting gay marriage in your church. When you tell me why, maybe I'll understand my error.

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Postby bubbaquimby » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:07 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:
bubbaquimby wrote:Let people decide on their own what they want to believe in.

Right on. Unfortunately, the Religious Right doesn't agree with your laissez-faire approach.

If religious folks don't want me belittling their beliefs then they should keep them the fuck out of my face. That means no prayer in public schools, no Ten Commandments in the courthouse, and no restraints on my intellectual freedom to study generally accepted scientific theories just because they don't jibe with what the Bible says.

But that's not how it is. Those of us who have decided we aren't buying what Christianity is offering are the ones up against the wall in this country. And yeah, we'll push back before we're force fed the Eucharist, but to pretend we started this dogmatic tug o' war is pure horseshit. The unbelievers are the ones trying to shore-up the wall between church and state, while the Right would have it erode entirely. In other words, the godless are standing with the founders on this one. And to paint our attempts to preserve the country's constitutional sanity as an attack on religion is to engage in hyperbolic paranoid propaganda of the most disingenuous sort.


Problem is that both sides have been totally stereotyped. People only think of Christians being viewed as fundamentalist Christians and trying to force fed them Christianity. And Christians see the secularists and people like the free thinkers of America has trying to take away their right to believe. I like separation of church and state but the country is and has been a country with religious people. Those beliefs and values are in the consitution. So it is a very tricky thing, as time goes on values of society have changed but other parts have stayed the same. So that is why their are and always will be battles between what America was and always should be and what America should change and become.
Last edited by bubbaquimby on Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby bubbaquimby » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:20 pm

Ducatista wrote:For like the 2nd time, why don't you want it in your church?

If you didn't call me stupid maybe I would have told you but I really don't want to justify to you my opinion.

Ducatista wrote:
What the... I've felt this way for a long time but have never summarized it before. So what's canned? Maybe I should've tossed in a few more typos to accentuate the freshness.

I used you as a springboard to address anti-gay-mariage folks in general because of your not wanting gay marriage in your church. When you tell me why, maybe I'll understand my error.


Well I felt it was canned and I guess justfied since you used my quote to springboard the gay marriage issue, when I am for it. I guess since I was the only one close to being against gay marriage and you couldn't find anyone actually against it and decided to use me as the opposition and basically suggested I am a bigoted homophobe who thinks gays will destroy marriage, when I am none of those things.

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Postby Ducatista » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:40 pm

bubbaquimby wrote:If you didn't call me stupid maybe I would have told you but I really don't want to justify to you my opinion.

Are you serious? I'll ask you to reconsider, because as I said, I've never heard a justification that doesn't at its heart stem from fear and/or distaste, and it baffles me. If you've got one, please set me straight.

bubbaquimby wrote:Well I felt it was canned and I guess justfied since you used my quote to springboard the gay marriage issue, when I am for it.

You're for it, as long as it's not OK in your church. To me, that makes you springy enough to serve as a rant launcher. That doesn't make my rant canned, it makes it soapy. Guilty as charged! This topic gets me steaming mad, and my usual sweet, retiring demeanor fails me when I climb up on the box.

But cranky as I may be, I did not suggest you're a bigoted homophobe, basically or otherwise. What I suggested, no, said, is that not wanting gay marriage to be made acceptable in your church is fucking stupid. You get the distinction? For all I know, you're gay. Maybe even married. But of course that would make not wanting it in your church even harder for me to understand.

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Postby white_rabbit » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:56 pm

Ducatista wrote: please set me straight.



Words that I will never speak.

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Postby Ducatista » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:58 pm

I couldn't resist. I almost typed "heh" afterward, but I thought that might queer my chances for an answer to my question.

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Postby gr0upie » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:09 pm

Ducatista wrote:... I thought that might queer my chances for an answer to my question.

good one.

8)

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Postby bubbaquimby » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:28 pm

Ducatista wrote:Are you serious? I'll ask you to reconsider, because as I said, I've never heard a justification that doesn't at its heart stem from fear and/or distaste, and it baffles me. If you've got one, please set me straight.


I am a traditional person who believes that in my religion marriage is a holy and very important part of church and shouldn't be taken lightly. It should be between a man and a women who for the most part are looking to raise a family following the teachings of Christ and commandments of God. If the wedding is in my church I feel that both the bride and groom should believe in these things and if not then they can marry in another church, with the justice of the peace or whatever. I have been to weddings were neither the bride or groom believed in anything the priest said about God and although I love both of them, it was painful to watch. The priest that married me and my wife said it best that He had married many people over the years and after looking back he had seen that many had divorced and he felt that it was a failure on his part that he had blessed marriages that failed. So he asked my faith story, and in his eyes he then knew if I believed in those teachings. This probably seems like I am avoiding the question. But what I am trying to say is that yes it probably is a distaste for gay marriage, it is not just that. It is that in church there has already been damage with divorce and churchgoers who don't marry but live together. I have many friends who don't believe in God and people who live togther but don't marry. I am fine with that, it is what they want and they don't go to my church and I don't think my church should sanction it. I am sure there are gays who believe in Christ and God and want a family someday just like me. But I believe that kids should have both a mom and a dad, they need both. I was missed out on a lot by not having a dad around for many of my youth and I can only imagine what it is like without one all the time. So while I don't agree with want many people do in life, in America I feel they have the right to live the life they feel fit to live and I should have to right and be able to go to a church that dissagrees with how they live and don't want it in there church.


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