No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:38 am

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/w ... 963f4.html

I didn't put this in under the political headings because that presupposes there's a political solution. As the story indicates, this is nothing new. The problem has persisted in the state under Democratic and Republican administrations and legislatures. I'd like to read your opinions about what are the causes, and solutions... particualy non-political solutions, if any.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 12815
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby snoqueen » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:45 am

I would particularly like to hear from people who have lived in other parts of the country where the data show things are better.

I think we just have no clue at all what we are doing differently -- it's a fish-don't-know-about-water thing.

Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:34 pm

snoqueen wrote:I would particularly like to hear from people who have lived in other parts of the country where the data show things are better.

I think we just have no clue at all what we are doing differently -- it's a fish-don't-know-about-water thing.


Which states show the best overall results? If they are states without noteworthy Black populations, then I won't be automatically impressed.

Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm
Contact:

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:14 pm

I went to the report and I could not find an overall breakdown by state. It was limited to each category they rank on. It looks like http://www.wccf.org/ did the math and found Wisconsin at the bottom. Overall I think this study does paint a shitty picture about Wisconsin. Another thing to keep in mind about the study is this:

. In addition to limited data availability, the data included in the Race for Results Index are not longitudinal. Therefore we are able to paint a picture of a point in time for groups of children, but cannot see how each indicator builds on each other from birth into
middle age to actually track a child’s trajectory over time. Finally, we did our best to suppress estimates that were deemed unreliable, but there might be instances — especially in smaller states with fewer racial/ethnic minorities — where estimates are volatile.


http://www.aecf.org/KnowledgeCenter/~/m ... dology.pdf

What I don't like about the study is that it looks at 12 key indicators, but as they point out, they don't actually look at the child's trajectory over time. I think that's a flaw. They also make mention of volatile results in their data. Just food for thought.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 21423
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:55 pm

I wonder if Wisconsin's incarceration rate for blacks (highest in the nation) contributes to this result.

kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 6075
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm
Contact:

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:05 pm

Stebben, the report is here and the state-by-state results for black children are on page 13 (the 15th page...).

Four states with very small black populations are omitted (WY, VT, MT, ID).

The top ten states are:

1. Hawaii
2. New Hampshire
3. Utah
4. Alaska
5. Massachusetts
6. Maryland
7. North Dakota
8. South Dakota
9. New Jersey
10. Maine

Most of those also have very small numbers of black children. Only Massachusetts, Maryland, and New Jersey have black populations that are at least 5%.

kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 6075
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm
Contact:

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:07 pm

Worst two states (by AECF's methods) are Mississippi and Wisconsin.

Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3453
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:08 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I wonder if Wisconsin's incarceration rate for blacks (highest in the nation) contributes to this result.


Would that be a cause or a symptom? Maybe a bit of both?

The fact that the two largest cities in the state also are two of the most segregated cities in the nation is another indicator, but I don't think it's a root cause either.

In truth the problem might be that there isn't any one root cause, and too many people are focused on fixing the "root cause".

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 12815
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby snoqueen » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:13 pm

Thanks for the link with state-by-state comparisons,which I will read next. [later edit: it looks like all they compare is the composite scores broken down by state and race, not item by item. Oh well...]

I am not comfortable beating up on any one state without knowing more about the data gathered. For instance, if only public schools are being compared, what about the states in the South where white parents pretty much all send their kids to private schools? How does that affect the comparison?

I am not sure how much weight I would place on this one single study, or on any single study. I'm NOT saying the problem doesn't exist, I'm saying this is not the only way to slice the loaf and look at it. I realize most people don't have the patience to pore over study after study, so picking just one and making it readable is understandable. At the same time it isn't the whole story.

For that reason I would rather discuss what people have experienced living in other parts of the country, real life stuff. Was your neighborhood more multi-racial? Your workplace? Anything obviously different about attitudes between various races? Were the schools better, or different? How about social services?

And I have another group of questions regarding schools. I see where the Madison school district suspends a lot more African American kids than kids of other races, by percentage. The more I read about the details of this problem, the more I'm totally mystified.

Are the black kids subject to different disciplinary standards? That seems so obviously unfair it doesn't even require comment, and it needs to be changed. What were the kids suspended for? Where offenses objectively happened, were they something that should have been tolerated, or dealt with in other ways? Is the mode of discipline the issue, or is the identification of supposed offenses/offenders seen as unfair?

Surely everybody, of all races, wants orderly schools where kids can feel safe and accomplish something. For that reason, I'd think everyone would believe in fair discipline in the classrooms, halls, and on school grounds. I need a better understanding of what people would like the schools to do.

I do understand the notion of low expectations. How does that intersect with the rates of suspension and discipline?

Obviously there is something I am not getting here. Could somebody spell it out? I feel like I should be apologizing for even asking, but I can't be the only person with no kids who doesn't understand the dynamics underlying this matter.

O.J.
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:13 am

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby O.J. » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:19 pm

Does anyone know of any state-by-state data on fatherless families?

Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Detritus » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:39 pm

The US Department of Education has a Civil Rights data collection project with all the numbers and pie charts you could want, although only for years 2009 and 2011. The home page is here. You can search by state, district, or even individual school. Here is the data for the Madison Metropolitan School District. Scroll down and learn! Sno was asking about discipline--there is a section on discipline. To the right of the basic pie charts on discipline are a set of buttons that show other fun facts. Clicking through you will find that, at 20% of the district population, African-American students comprise 51% of the in-school suspensions, 54.2% of the out-of-school suspensions, 41.7% of the expulsions, and 100% of the arrests. White kids? 45.3% of the enrollment, 19.8% of in-school suspensions, 17.9% of out-of-school suspensions, a full 50% of the expulsions--and zero percent of the arrests. That's right, white kids are more likely to be expelled, black kids more likely to be arrested.

That's what's called the "school-to-jail pipeline."

Wisconsin DPI has tons of data as well. It's out there, you just gotta find it.

Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3453
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:26 pm

It be interesting to see a break down on offenses. Are white kids getting expelled for things that black kids are getting arrested for, or are the offenses of differing levels (assault versus possession)?

Detritus wrote:That's right, white kids are more likely to be expelled, black kids more likely to be arrested.

Your math is off a bit here. There were only 8 school related arrests, Black kids are still far more likely to be expelled then arrested. On the other hand any arrests appears 100% likely to be a black student.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 12815
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby snoqueen » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:12 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:It be interesting to see a break down on offenses. Are white kids getting expelled for things that black kids are getting arrested for, or are the offenses of differing levels (assault versus possession)?


That is what I want to know, at least partly. If black kids are being overcharged, that isn't right. But neither is it right to have lower expectations for the kids' behavior, any more than it is right to have low expectations for their academic performance. Am I off base here?

I have a feeling there are so many different interest groups within the black community it is unrealistic to try and draw big conclusions from statistics alone. You'd have to go behind the numbers and take them apart incident by incident, or school by school. The kid of a family that just got here six months ago is not in the same situation as the kid of a family that's been in the school district ten or twelve years. I am not sure classifying people solely by race shows enough to be useful in problem solving.

It helps to confirm there are problems, but doesn't show what to do about them which is the real question.
Last edited by snoqueen on Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 4971
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby gargantua » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:30 pm

The big question, which I apologize if I missed it, is why? Why are black children more likely to be arrested/suspended/disciplined? I keep hearing that racism is the difference, but to what extent?

I grew up during my early years in the old Greenbush neighborhood before it was razed. I played with kids of all races. Went to school with them. Some kids were more easily bored, more energetic, had more problems with impulse control. But they were good kids! They were my friends. This will sound very simplistic, but so many of them could have done well with patience, understanding, and an expectation of excellence. The last probably being the most important. They were expected to fail. Of course they would. They were children. We adults need to understand just how powerful our expectations are.

Mad Howler
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1758
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: No state worse than Wisconsin for black children

Postby Mad Howler » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:11 pm

Thank you dman for starting this thread. I do not have my head around how I might act to address this, other than to possess some ill defined guilt around perpetration of injustice that my ignorance has helped perpetuate.
MH


Return to “Headlines”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests