Ukraine

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Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Sat May 03, 2014 1:19 pm

Bludgeon wrote:People who support Turchynov's non-elected government - what is the reason for this support? The clear and present reason.


I don't think most people have a strong opinion on Ukraine's inner struggle, or the government in Kiev. Only those who have swallowed the Russian state media narrative are energized. Elections are scheduled for May 25, there will be heavy international monitoring. Obviously violence instigated by Putin will make elections impossible in some regions, but this best hope for way forward.

Bludgeon wrote:understanding that almost everything we know is second hand information, about Ukraine - and when you add it all up, we know very little. Who knows whose people ANY of the fighters are in Ukraine?

All news is "second hand information." There is plenty of evidence what is happening. Just like in Crimea, the reality is 180 degrees opposite from Russian claims. You are trying to put up a smokescreen.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby Detritus » Sat May 03, 2014 1:20 pm

Bludgeon wrote: They are probably from everywhere in the white world, at this point.

Where is that, exactly, and why would they be involved in particular?

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Sat May 03, 2014 1:31 pm

I watched a panel discussion yesterday on NATO expansion. It is intensely interesting, watch if you have time:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?319140-2/n ... n-security

The question before the panel is whether NATO expansion was a mistake. I didn't get a sense of deep regret from any of the panel members, which surprised me. Maybe that means the panel was not broad enough, or maybe there is much consensus among experts that NATO expansion was flawed but is now validated.

Andrei Kozyrev, who was the Russian foreign minister in the 1990s and is today very disappointed with the state of his nation, made a close comparison of the behavior of Putin in Ukraine and Milosevic in regions of former Yugoslavia. Just wanted to share my boner moment.

Bludgeon
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Sun May 04, 2014 11:13 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:People who support Turchynov's non-elected government - what is the reason for this support? The clear and present reason.


I don't think most people have a strong opinion on Ukraine's inner struggle, or the government in Kiev. Only those who have swallowed the Russian state media narrative are energized. Elections are scheduled for May 25, there will be heavy international monitoring. Obviously violence instigated by Putin will make elections impossible in some regions, but this best hope for way forward.


What's unfortunate in my opinion is that you seem to intentionally choose to believe only propaganda. What any objective observer should be doing is working to establish the bare, unadulterated facts. With all the propagandic flare, sussing out the essentials is the only way to have a clear idea what's going on.

Discern the fundamentals; these are the foundation without which there is no understanding. Discern the fundamentals and don't stray far from this foundation until more facts can be discerned. This may sound limiting, but you'd be surprised how much there is to see from this perspective, and how much clearer the view for not being muddied up with pointed diversions.

The truth is, the bare unadulterated facts have never been in question. Narrative, no narrative, fuck narrative, these are the facts:

1. Ukraine held a presidential election in 2010; the results of that election were certified and binding. Party of Regions candidate Viktor Yanukovych won; Batkivshyna candidate Yulia Tymoshenko lost. Result: Viktor Yanukovych is the legal president of Ukraine. Still.

2. Batkivshyna activists staged a coup in February 2014 in which many people were killed and Ukraine's president had to flee for his life.

3. The presidential elections were only 3 months away but rather than trust their fate to the voters, the Batkivshyna took over the national government, illegally installed an unelected presidential administration, then rewrote the Ukrainian constitution, in stark defiance to the democratic process.

4. Having illegally deposed the people's chosen president, Turchynov, first deputy chairman OF the losing opposition party, has no legitimate authority in Ukraine. He was not elected; the last time his party faced an election it lost. An illegitimate government by it's very nature cannot host a legitimate election. By the way, who do you think is on the ballot, but 2010 Batkivshyna party loser, Yulia Tymoshenko, who's unelected pal is illegally keeping her seat warm for her?

5. Having taken Kiev by mob and by force, the unelected mob in Kiev now sees fit to outlaw protests and demonstrations. They are labeling as 'terrorists', all Ukrainians who rightfully reject the dominion of these Batkivschyna usurpers.

6. Having declared Ukraine's citizens "terrorists", the Batkivshcyna are threatening and killing them with masked men. They've sent in the police, they've sent in the military. Everyone is wearing masks so the truth is no one knows who any of these people are.

7. What is known is that Kiev has had an impossible time dealing with these protests because it has become quite apparent that large numbers of EVEN the police and military will not support their illegal rule.

BBC wrote:"I would like to say frankly that at the moment the security structures are unable to swiftly take the situation in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions back under control," he said during a meeting with regional governors.

He admitted security personnel "tasked with the protection of citizens" were "helpless".

"More than that, some of these units either aid or co-operate with *-"terrorist"-* groups," he said.


You have shown again and again that you're unable to disprove any of this. And, other than the "narrative", the United States doesn't dispute any of these facts either. You're just wasting my time with this extraneous nonsense about Hitler and Milosevic. I want to establish what is and is not indisputable for the purpose of a constructive dialogue; you really seem like you're not going to be happy with anything but an endless tirade of absolutely useless talking points.

You can disagree with the 'narrative', but none of the above items are in dispute in any sense other than the tilt of their portrayal. You're trying to pin it all on Russia, but these are Ukrainian police and military justifiably refusing the orders of Kiev.

Translation of 'narrative': the glut of bullshit propagandists lather 'round the facts for eager partisans to understand who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are supposed to be. Supposed to be. But it all really means nothing. Everything but the facts is a diversion. Everything but the foundation is unsustainable.

You keep falling back on the straw man of what my tilt is 'supposed' to be - is the problem that you're unable to understand anything without tilt? If it isn't something predefined, you have no method of interpretation? You can respond how you like, but it's pretty clear you've got a part for everyone, regardless if they want to play talking points or not. You keep falling back on the straw man, but the truth is you actually have no idea what the Russian media narrative is. You only know what you are told the Russian media narrative is; being a good partisan, you only respond how you're programmed to respond, I guess.

Just get down to the facts and address what's going on in Kiev, or shut up and quit wasting everyone's time with this good soldier, partisan puppet routine.

Mad Howler
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Mad Howler » Sun May 04, 2014 11:48 pm

Huck you protested,
But it appears Chev-et-oil et al will miss 12% -
http://www.worldoil.com/Chevrons-goal-f ... utput.html

Again,
Whom benefits?
Who suffers?
How does this work out better for most?
Who wants this this entanglement to ride on?

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Mon May 05, 2014 11:27 am

Mad Howler wrote:Huck you protested,
But it appears Chev-et-oil et al will miss 12% -
http://www.worldoil.com/Chevrons-goal-f ... utput.html

The theory I've been hearing from the left is that the toppling of the Putin puppet government in Ukraine was engendered by Western corporations anxious to exploit & loot Ukrainian goodies. (A shaky proposition on the face of it.)

The above article points out that Chevron, an energy company based in France, is getting screwed by the turmoil in the Ukraine. The dueling threats of sanctions will likely disrupt their (and other corporations') business with Russia. Chevron in particular has a pipeline through the Caucasus in the works.

Woah, Nelly! The above story suggests western businesses were unlikely to want a change in Ukraine.

O.J.
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Re: Ukraine

Postby O.J. » Mon May 05, 2014 11:41 am

Chevron is an American company, Huck.

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Mon May 05, 2014 11:45 am

Bludgeon wrote: these are the facts:

I don't agree with you about what happened in Ukraine in the past, I have learned different facts.
But it is passing strange that you bothered to type all that in for the hundredth time , I've already agreed to accept your story for purposes of discussion.

As far as what is going on today, I have to call an end to the baloney. Reporters on the ground from free media describe a very different situation, with intimidation coming primarily from the Russian cadres. It is Russia that oppose U.N. troops to monitor events and help achieve stability.

Your theory that the Kiev government is deeply and broadly unpopular makes no sense. It is Russia that is disrupting and bad-mouthing internationally supervised elections.

You yourself mock U.N. troops and internationally supervised elections. You are on the Russian propaganda crazy train.

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Mon May 05, 2014 11:53 am

O.J. wrote:Chevron is an American company, Huck.


Huh. I got the idea that Chevron was based in France decades ago, probably because they have a subsidiary there that was in news. That wrong fact lodged in my brain for 20 years. Since then, I always said "Chevron" with a french accent in my thoughts, no kidding.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby kurt_w » Mon May 05, 2014 3:57 pm

Huckleby wrote:As far as what is going on today, I have to call an end to the baloney.

Huh. Good luck with that. Our miniature version of Lord Haw-Haw will keep posting Russian propaganda as long as it suits him. I doubt many are paying attention.

Bludgeon
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Mon May 05, 2014 4:06 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: these are the facts:

I don't agree with you about what happened in Ukraine in the past, I have learned different facts.
But it is passing strange that you bothered to type all that in for the hundredth time , I've already agreed to accept your story for purposes of discussion.


What's to disagree with? You've had every opportunity. I would assume as a discriminating individual, a person would want to demonstrate that they are correct, or admit that they are not. One can only assume that if you have some winning argument about these facts, you should be only too pleased to share it. Instead you retreat from the substantive discussion, feign acceptance; but by declaration you are only saying that you want to move beyond the substantive facts of the matter and call the matter settled and ready for slanted narrative comparison. You don't get a pass. You have to justify your narrative.

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Mon May 05, 2014 5:19 pm

Bludgeon wrote: You don't get a pass. You have to justify your narrative.


You have been rudely spamming the forum with your account of Kiev from several months ago. Repetition is not conversation, it's propaganda, and I won't partake. Your "facts" do not justify Russia's aggression in Ukraine, nor do they justify the disruption of internationally monitored elections.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Mon May 05, 2014 5:24 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: You don't get a pass. You have to justify your narrative.


You have been rudely spamming the forum with your account of Kiev from several months ago, I won't enable more repetition. Your "facts" do not justify Russia's aggression in Ukraine, nor do they justify the disruption of internationally monitored elections.


Another dodge.

Image

Your problem is that you don't have an account of what happened in Ukraine. Do you? You OP'd the thread, you should feel welcome to share it.

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Mon May 05, 2014 5:33 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Your problem is that you don't have an account of what happened in Ukraine. Do you?


That's right. I'll believe your account. Now on to what's relevant today:

Do you think Putin's New Russia policy will lead to a bright future for Russia?
I think they have stumbled into a grinding, no-win Cold War that will stifle their economy over coming decade. It won't be as crushing as what Milosevic brought to Serbia, but price is high.

Do you think Russia's attempts to disrupt international elections scheduled for May 25 show that the elections are corrupt, or that a government out of Putin's control will likely come to power?

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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Mon May 05, 2014 6:20 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:Your problem is that you don't have an account of what happened in Ukraine. Do you?


That's right. I'll believe your account. Now on to what's relevant today:

Do you think Russia's attempts to disrupt international elections scheduled for May 25 show that the elections are corrupt, or that a government out of Putin's control will likely come to power?


Ukraine today is the focus of a new power struggle between the west and the east. An unelected mob took over a nation's capitol, and the west is both enriching and enabling them. The people of Ukraine resist. The police resist, the army resists; Eastern Ukraine has refused to allow this. The argument that this resistance is all orchestrated by Russia, ignores the fact that the people of Ukraine have had their president taken from them. This is an atrocity. But instead of justice from western nations who claim to want what's best for Ukraine, those countries are standing between them and the capitol with threat of force. Now those western countries insist on a new election hosted by this provisional government of traitors and usurpers, whose explicit goal is to thrust Ukraine into the European Union.

This Batkivshyna government, who lost the election, has taken over the country; and besides staging a coup, they're in the process of staging a heist. The victims are the people of Ukraine who are going to go to sleep May 24th as Ukrainians and wake up May 25th as Europeans, and be powerless to stop it without Russian intervention. However it will be a designation in name only, one that Eastern Ukraine likely will not condone. I see the most likely outcome as a splitting of the country, but don't rule out military intervention and siege.

Image
Kevin Lamarque wrote:Future historians will note that in April 2014, nearly a quarter-century after the end of the Soviet Union, the White House declared a new Cold War on Russia—and that, in a grave failure of representative democracy, there was scarcely a public word of debate, much less opposition, from the American political or media establishment.

The Obama administration announced its Cold War indirectly, in a front-page New York Times story by Peter Baker on April 20. According to the report, President Obama has resolved, because of the Ukraine crisis, that he can “never have a constructive relationship” with Russian President Vladimir Putin and will instead “ignore the master of the Kremlin” and focus on “isolating…Russia by cutting off its economic and political ties to the outside world…effectively making it a pariah state.” In short, Baker reports, the White House has adopted “an updated version of the Cold War strategy of containment.” He might have added, a very extreme version. The report has been neither denied nor qualified by the White House.


This president is behaving quite volatile and drastically different from prior administrations -- as if he wants a trophy. The destabilization of Ukraine originates with the Batkivschyna coup. That coup is tacitly backed by the west. Our enabling and our financing of this mess is what is keeping it a mess.


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