Ukraine

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Bludgeon
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 02, 2014 10:10 am

jman111 wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:It's no different than...

Really?
No different?


That's exactly what happened in Ukraine. The details are not in serious dispute. There's a little wiggle room for the spinsters in the propaganda rooms.

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Fri May 02, 2014 11:52 am

Stebben84 wrote:All along you have been making insinuations as well. Ukraine is clearly divided. I'm not sure of the populations numbers, but just because this is an east/west thing, doesn't mean it's a 50/50 split for the entire country. Putin said that they only wanted Crimea and from what we're seeing now, that was complete bullshit. They are fueling the fighting in the east and they won't stop until Ukraine is divided.


I don't think either Putin or Bludgeon have been indirect. Putin has lied about the role his military is playing on the ground in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, but his goals have been on the table.

Bludgeon has argued relentlessly that Russia will and should assert control over Ukraine because of historical ties.

Putin made that policy absolutely clear earlier this month when he described southern and eastern Ukraine as "New Russia", the name for former colonies that (in his mind) never should have been separated from the motherland.

Bludgeon does not comment on Putin's "New Russia" speech, screams "straw man" when it is suggested he supports Putin. I have no explanation for that odd contradiction in Bludgeon's head.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby bleurose » Fri May 02, 2014 12:27 pm

"there" troops
"there" own
Both should be "their"

"reigning in" should be "reining in" as in :"to rein in horse", not a reigning monarch

"90's", "1940's" yuck. 90s, 1940s: plurals, not possessives.

That's it, that's all I've got because I find this whole topic to be almost hopelessly tangled.

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Fri May 02, 2014 12:35 pm

bleurose wrote:"there" troops
"there" own
Both should be "their"


People really should be excused from that one when typing posts. The way the brain works, it retrieves words by sound. People often type things like "are" for "our" when they are chatting online. I think everyone knows the difference between "their" and "there", and the reader can figure out the meaning from syntax.
People who make sound-alike errors are not confused or stupid, they just aren't editing they're work carefully. No need to change that relaxed culture.
Last edited by Huckleby on Fri May 02, 2014 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stebben84
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Stebben84 » Fri May 02, 2014 12:36 pm

Bludgeon wrote:That's exactly what happened in Ukraine.


Insinuation.

Bludgeon wrote:Kiev has sent police, Kiev has sent military, to assail these people who are simply upset that Ukraine's opposition party has robbed them of their president.


By "these people" do you mean the ones that Putin sent in to take over the eastern cities?

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Re: Ukraine

Postby kurt_w » Fri May 02, 2014 12:40 pm

The vast majority of Ukrainians -- east or west -- don't want Russia to intervene in their country:

The April 3-12 survey of 1,200 randomly selected Ukrainians of voting age by Baltic Surveys/The Gallup Organization found a nationwide average of 85% against any Russian military intervention [...]

Opposition to Russian intervention was predictably strongest in the western and central areas of Ukraine [...] But even in the eastern regions that are the scene of armed clashes between pro-Russia separatists and Ukrainian troops attempting to recover territory seized by the militants, 69% expressed opposition to Russian troops intruding in Ukraine's affairs.

Opposition to Russian intervention in the southern areas was 75%, according to the poll. That canvassing did not include Crimea, which was seized and annexed by Russia last month, because pollsters were denied access to the peninsula by the Russian troops now in control, the survey sponsors said.


In the upcoming presidential race, the poll found the most support for "Petro Poroshenko, a billionaire chocolate industry magnate and former foreign minister". Former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko is in second place in the poll. Neither of these candidates is going to be pro-Russian.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby uwstudent » Fri May 02, 2014 1:44 pm

My grandmother used to say "Don't trust those Rooshuns!"

Bludgeon
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Fri May 02, 2014 1:49 pm

WaPo wrote:Ukrainian riot police humiliated in clash with separatists; Putin demands Kiev pull troops

DONETSK, Ukraine — This eastern Ukrainian city took another step toward mob rule Thursday as pro-Russian separatists stormed the state prosecutor’s office and forced dozens of riot police deployed to guard the building into a humiliating surrender.

The attackers, who threw stones and wielded sticks, were backed by a crowd of at least 1,000 men and women of all ages. They chanted “fascists” and “traitors” at the riot police and waved Russian flags as well as those of the self-styled Donetsk People’s Republic.


The unelected mob ruling Kiev seems unable to contain the objecting mob in Sloviansk. The terrorists who have fleeced the IMF for $17 billion dollars in free spending money to retire on, are also wanting to let their western masters know they want military help after circumventing the democratic process, because the people don't like it and aren't willing to recognize their illegal rule of an entire modern nation.

Should we, the U.N. or NATO, send over combat units? Yes, or no?

Talk amongst yourselves, I'm feeling verkempt.

Image

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Re: Ukraine

Postby Stella_Guru » Fri May 02, 2014 4:05 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Should we, the U.N. or NATO, send over combat units? Yes, or no?

You bet. The Ukranian Neo-Nazis, snipers, oligarchs, U.S. State Dept. advanced planners, and the coup government will throw candy and flowers at our invading troops, just like the Iraqis did a decade ago, complete with some more Orwellion press coverage. It is easy enough for the tools and dupes to cry foul here, but this didn't start with the Ukraine.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Fri May 02, 2014 4:26 pm

Stella_Guru wrote: The Ukranian Neo-Nazis, snipers, oligarchs, U.S. State Dept. advanced planners, and the coup government

Do you believe that neo-Nazis are a large part of the population of Ukraine? Do they exist mostly in Ukraine, or in similar numbers in bordering Poland, Moldovia, etc ?
Do you expect neo-nazis to gain significant representation in the May 25 elections?

Without putting a label on it, how do you perceive life in Putin's Russia in terms of press freedom, freedom of expression, respect for human rights? Is Putin's Russia a system that you admire? Do you believe that a significant percentages of people in Ukraine long to be ruled by a government like Russia's?

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Fri May 02, 2014 4:44 pm

Ya know, sorry to keep harping on it, but it is amazing how exactly Putin's strategy in Ukraine resembles Milosovic's game in Bosnia. The stoking of ethnic fears and tensions. The "Nazi" rouse. The carving out of ethnic enclaves of "Greater Serbia", citing historical ties.

This is a rerun. In a few years all will be clear, just like the last time.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby Stella_Guru » Fri May 02, 2014 5:10 pm

Huckleby wrote:Without putting a label on it, how do you perceive life in Putin's Russia in terms of press freedom, freedom of expression, respect for human rights? Is Putin's Russia a system that you admire?

Ha, and I thought the run-up to the Viet Nam conflict was bad. Dad, is that you?
To your questions about life in Russia, ask Edward Snowden about it.

Huckleby
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Huckleby » Fri May 02, 2014 6:57 pm

Stella_Guru wrote: Ha, and I thought the run-up to the Viet Nam conflict was bad. Dad, is that you?
To your questions about life in Russia, ask Edward Snowden about it.


Well, you are unwilling to recognize the elephant in the room.

Acknowledging evil and aggression in the world is important. It does not dictate a particular policy, but sticking head in the sand leads to crazy positions. Like the support of the far left for Milosevic back in the 1990s. Or the support for the Soviet Union by the left, for that matter. The "both sides do bad things so don't make judgements" reasoning.

Bludgeon
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Re: Ukraine

Postby Bludgeon » Sat May 03, 2014 1:01 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:That's exactly what happened in Ukraine.


Insinuation.


Look, there's nothing wrong with an insinuation. I'm not beleaguering Huckleby because he's making insinuations, I'm just trying to bring the level of communication up to the degree where we can be clear what we're really talking about. All these nonsensical hints and allegations need to be grounded in a cohesive statement. Let's untangle that thread and get a look at what it is we are atually saying.

People who support Turchynov's non-elected government - what is the reason for this support? The clear and present reason.

People who support Eastern Ukraine's right to flout what is essentially an unelected controlling body - what is the reason for this support? The clear and present reason.

I have been very clear, for my part.

Stebben84 wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:Kiev has sent police, Kiev has sent military, to assail these people who are simply upset that Ukraine's opposition party has robbed them of their president.


By "these people" do you mean the ones that Putin sent in to take over the eastern cities?


I really think it is important that people begin to temper their ire and outrage with a little bit of clarity and reflection on the understanding that almost everything we know is second hand information, about Ukraine - and when you add it all up, we know very little. Who knows whose people ANY of the fighters are in Ukraine? They all have masks. They are probably from everywhere in the white world, at this point.

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Re: Ukraine

Postby rabble » Sat May 03, 2014 1:16 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I really think it is important that people begin to temper their ire and outrage with a little bit of clarity and reflection on the understanding that almost everything we know is second hand information, about Ukraine - and when you add it all up, we know very little.

You mean except for you, right? Cause "uncertain" isn't the term I'd use to describe what you've been putting forth here.

Neither is "reflection."


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