A comparison (another gun thread)

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Dangerousman
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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:36 pm

In other/better news:

Wisconsin issues its 200,000th concealed carry license

http://fox6now.com/2013/10/01/wisconsin-issues-its-200000th-concealed-carry-license/

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby snoqueen » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:09 am

And somewhere, a sign company just sold its two-millionth "no guns on premises" sign.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby wack wack » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:11 am

I wonder how many licenses went to those who want to carry vs. those who want to protect themselves from those who carry.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:32 am

wack wack wrote:I wonder how many licenses went to those who want to carry vs. those who want to protect themselves from those who carry.


Who are also know as "those who want to carry" as well. Not sure what kind of mentality would think that people who want to carry guns are all bad, so I better carry one to protect myself. A fairly egocentric one I assume.

Dangerousman wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:in terms of fairness, I don't see how you can hold a licensed vendor in his own shop to a higher standard than some random guy you find on craigslist.


I agree with your post except for this passage. I don't think there's anything improper or unusual about holding a licensed individual to a higher standard-- whether that person is giving you legal advice, medical treatment, a haircut, or selling a firearm. As licensees, they not only have higher standards to uphold, but in exchange they are often granted privileges or powers that non-licensees do not have.


I was thinking more along the lines of other controlled products such as alcohol or I believe tobacco, where sales are only allowed by those with a license of some sort. I think selling of firearms and ammunition is probably more comparable to that then haircuts. Legal advice and medical treatment are actually not a good support for your argument. You can't provide medical or legal services for a fee without some form of license. Of course anyone can give medical or legal advice away for free, but we aren't talking about people giving others firearms for free.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby wack wack » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:07 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Who are also know as "those who want to carry" as well. Not sure what kind of mentality would think that people who want to carry guns are all bad, so I better carry one to protect myself. A fairly egocentric one I assume.


Why would you assume that? What does it have to do with ego at all?

I don't know the straw man you mention, the one who assumes that people who want to carry guns are all bad, but I do know people who are aware that assuming all 200k licenses went to decent, law abiding people is foolish.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby snoqueen » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:16 pm

It's not even that. Non-law abiding people don't bother with permits anyhow.

It's people who make bad decisions, often made under pressure, and that at times can be all of us. The pressure can be external or in our own minds, but the decisions people make with guns are no longer private, are irrevocable, and are a lot more damaging than an unarmed temper tantrum or bout of paranoia.

The calmest and most rational person in the world still makes mistakes and has bad days.

To make it ever easier and more conventional to turn a bad day into someone else's last day is the wrong road to be taking.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:30 pm

wack wack wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:Who are also know as "those who want to carry" as well. Not sure what kind of mentality would think that people who want to carry guns are all bad, so I better carry one to protect myself. A fairly egocentric one I assume.


Why would you assume that? What does it have to do with ego at all?

I don't know the straw man you mention, the one who assumes that people who want to carry guns are all bad, but I do know people who are aware that assuming all 200k licenses went to decent, law abiding people is foolish.


No straw man intended, any one who is carrying to protect themselves from CC holders has exactly the same motivation as every other CC holder. Protect themselves from others who might threaten them.

I was thinking it's egocentric that they consider their justification different, but on further thought there isn't any actual evidence that anyone believes that, just your implied justification:
wack wack wrote:those who want to protect themselves from those who carry.


if someone who doesn't want to carry a gun to protect themselves from non-law abiding people, why would they change their mind just because there are some licenses that went to less then upstanding citizens? Do you think there are people who are smart enough to realize some shady characters might have got licenses, but too stupid to realize that plenty of people who commit crimes probably already carry illegally?

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:41 pm

snoqueen wrote:It's people who make bad decisions, often made under pressure, and that at times can be all of us. The pressure can be external or in our own minds, but the decisions people make with guns are no longer private, are irrevocable, and are a lot more damaging than an unarmed temper tantrum or bout of paranoia.


I'm sure D-man will add more, but dealing with these kinds of decisions and reacting to threats (or non-threats) quickly and correctly is part of why I think anyone who does carry should be required to go through extensive use of force training, and not just the joke training that the current interpretation of the law requires.

snoqueen wrote:The calmest and most rational person in the world still makes mistakes and has bad days.

To make it ever easier and more conventional to turn a bad day into someone else's last day is the wrong road to be taking.

Even with that training of course, mistakes still happen and gray areas exist. Police officer receive plenty of use of force and firearms training and there are still plenty of police shootings that are of questionable nature. Sometimes even if the officer did everything right.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby wack wack » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:47 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:if someone who doesn't want to carry a gun to protect themselves from non-law abiding people, why would they change their mind just because there are some licenses that went to less then upstanding citizens? Do you think there are people who are smart enough to realize some shady characters might have got licenses, but too stupid to realize that plenty of people who commit crimes probably already carry illegally?


It's purely about numbers. There are more guns on the street, many of them in the hands of people exactly like sno described, so I need to rethink my position on carrying. No deep, philosophical thing here.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:05 pm

wack wack wrote:It's purely about numbers. There are more guns on the street, many of them in the hands of people exactly like sno described, so I need to rethink my position on carrying. No deep, philosophical thing here.


The people Sno described is all of us. Every single CC license is in the hands of one of the people Sno described.

I guess I just don't buy the theory that a significant number of CC licenses were sought out just because people who would otherwise not have sought out gun ownership (or the right to carry) suddenly decided to join the wisconsin arms race when they saw that less then %3 of their neighbors might suddenly be packing heat.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby wack wack » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:34 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:The people Sno described is all of us. Every single CC license is in the hands of one of the people Sno described.


Yes, exactly. And now many more of them will be carrying in guns in public.

Francis Di Domizio wrote:I guess I just don't buy the theory...


It wasn't a theory, just an inquisitive thought. You believe the second group is very small or non-existent. Got it.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:51 pm

wack wack wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:The people Sno described is all of us. Every single CC license is in the hands of one of the people Sno described.


Yes, exactly. And now many more of them will be carrying in guns in public.

less then %3 of the overall population of the state. Probably significantly less since not all CC holders carry on a regular basis.

wack wack wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:I guess I just don't buy the theory...


It wasn't a theory, just an inquisitive thought. You believe the second group is very small or non-existent. Got it.


I haven't seen any evidence that would support your inquisitive thought and believe that the desire to carry a weapon for defense (or not to) isn't an opinion that changes that easily.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby wack wack » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:47 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:less then %3 of the overall population of the state. Probably significantly less since not all CC holders carry on a regular basis.


Regardless of the overall number, degree of change is significant. What part of that 3% carried before, despite illegality? Probably less than 20% (were 40k people really carrying illegally prior to the law?), which means there are potentially 5x as many guns on the street. I'm not a mathematician, but it seems my opportunity to witness or become engaged in a gun incident when I am in public has likewise increased by 5x.

Francis Di Domizio wrote:I haven't seen any evidence that would support your inquisitive thought and believe that the desire to carry a weapon for defense (or not to) isn't an opinion that changes that easily.


I didn't say it was. Consideration for the increase in the number of guns out there isn't trivial.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:03 pm

wack wack wrote:What part of that 3% carried before, despite illegality? Probably less than 20% (were 40k people really carrying illegally prior to the law?)


Not sure if you are discounting this or not, but not all of those who used to carry illegally are now carrying legally. The overall number of people who might be carrying a weapon is not in anyway defined by the number of CC license holders. For all we know the rate of illegal carry may have gone up in response as well.

wack wack wrote:which means there are potentially 5x as many guns on the street.


Potentially, but right now you and I are just making wild ass guesses and that multiplier of 5 doesn't mean a hell of a lot without knowing the starting number or what portion of the starting number were eligible and applied for a CC license.

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Re: A comparison (another gun thread)

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:31 pm

snoqueen wrote:And somewhere, a sign company just sold its two-millionth "no guns on premises" sign.


You wish. But the great majority of businesses are not posted. And I hear of far more instances of businesses that had previously been posted removing the signs than I hear of unposted businesses now deciding to post. With the immunity provision, any business that insists on posting ought to get a better lawyer.


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