Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

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penquin
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby penquin » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:22 pm

HawkHead wrote:Yes, actually a driver's license does have a clause that it can be revoked for causing accidents.


Lil' difference between "can be" and "will be", no?

How many felonies does one have to be convicted of before being automatically banned, for life, from driving a vehicle? Exactly which misdemeanors will result in an automatic lifetime ban on driving?

And again, it should be pointed out that driving on a public road is not a protected right...so perhaps it should instead be asked How many crimes must one be convicted of before they are automatically denied the right to worship or free speech for the rest of their life?

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby rabble » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:26 pm

penquin wrote:
HawkHead wrote:Yes, actually a driver's license does have a clause that it can be revoked for causing accidents.


Lil' difference between "can be" and "will be", no?

There is such a clause in a concealed carry permit?

"can be" or "will be," either is fine, as long as it's there.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby HawkHead » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:31 pm

penquin wrote:
HawkHead wrote:Yes, actually a driver's license does have a clause that it can be revoked for causing accidents.


Lil' difference between "can be" and "will be", no?

How many felonies does one have to be convicted of before being automatically banned, for life, from driving a vehicle? Exactly which misdemeanors will result in an automatic lifetime ban on driving?

And again, it should be pointed out that driving on a public road is not a protected right...so perhaps it should instead be asked How many crimes must one be convicted of before they are automatically denied the right to worship or free speech for the rest of their life?


Maybe you should read the WI Drivers Handbook before you re-up your license next year.

We have a 12 point system in Wisconsin and you "get" points for different violations like getting into accidents if you are at fault.

http://driving-tests.org/wisconsin/wisc ... ok-online/

They even have a section for habitual offenders.

Free speech is already limited in certain ways same with religion.

I am not sure what you are getting at.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby penquin » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:42 pm

Hawk,

Folks are pointing to one accident with a firearm as a reason why that individual shouldn't be allowed a firearm, period. No point system or anything...just another (of the many) automatic revocations when it comes to the right to bear arms. I am unaware of any law/regulation/rule in WI which will result in an automatic revocation of a person's driver's license, for life, from just one accident.

And yes, free speech and religion are limited in some ways...but neither of 'em can be so easily revoked, for life. And neither of them have as many burdensome requirements put on 'em in order to exercise 'em. That's what I'm trying to get at...

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby rabble » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:56 pm

I'd be okay with a point system. Just tell me there's SOMETHING in a concealed carry permit that says if you do something stupid and it goes off, they at least can think about whether they might have made a mistake or not.

There is a mechanism like that, isn't there?

Isn't there?

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jman111 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:59 pm

penquin wrote:Folks are pointing to one accident with a firearm as a reason why that individual shouldn't be allowed a firearm, period. No point system or anything...just another (of the many) automatic revocations when it comes to the right to bear arms...

Really? Is that what folks are doing? Looks to me like they are presenting examples demonstrating the risks of allowing little or no restriction of gun possession.

I am certainly not anti-gun.
But I am absolutely anti-careless idiot in a public place with a gun.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby jman111 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:06 pm

Stebben84 wrote:And he had no repercussions from doing that. I think you should get a stiff fine if you leave your gun in a public space. Some kid could have picked that shit up. Alas, I'm sure someone will come to this douchebag's defense.

It seems Stebben wasn't doing it.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby eriedasch » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:10 pm

penquin wrote:And yes, free speech and religion are limited in some ways...but neither of 'em can be so easily revoked, for life. And neither of them have as many burdensome requirements put on 'em in order to exercise 'em. That's what I'm trying to get at...

But neither one of them has such physical consequences to others in society as being reckless with a firearm. I understand what everyone is getting at and I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.

What if someone was drunk and killed a whole busload of school children? Would they be able drive again? Probably not for a long long long time - if ever.

I could see treating gun accidents by lawful owners in a similar way as drunk driving. Even if a drunk driver does no harm to anyone (provided they are caught) they still face temporary loss of driving privileges and have to take alcohol assessments, undergo treatment, etc. if they ever want to legally drive again. Same should be applied to the lawful gun owner who "accidentally" fires his gun in public. Loss of privileges for at least 6 months, have to pay to be assessed by a professional, and then take a 3 month long (in patient or outpatient) gun safety class that costs thousands of dollars before they can legally carry again.

I don't think anyone is saying revoke for life, but that if someone is reckless with a gun yet does not harm anyone, there should still be some kind of penalty and proof that the person is responsible enough to be trusted in the future.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby rabble » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:51 pm

rabble wrote:I'd be okay with a point system. Just tell me there's SOMETHING in a concealed carry permit that says if you do something stupid and it goes off, they at least can think about whether they might have made a mistake or not.

There is a mechanism like that, isn't there?

Isn't there?

So... that would be "no" then?

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:10 pm


rabble
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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby rabble » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:52 pm

Okay, there you go. If you do something stupid with your gun and you're a police chief, you suggest to the mayor that she should suspend you for a day, and then she does.

Well that pretty much covers all the bases. We're safe as kittens.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:25 am

rabble wrote:Okay, there you go. If you do something stupid with your gun and you're a police chief, you suggest to the mayor that she should suspend you for a day, and then she does.

Well that pretty much covers all the bases. We're safe as kittens.


No. You're missing the point. People here have been suggesting that accidents with guns occur due to inadequate training. Actually, that's probably a fairly uncommon reason for gun accidents. As this and plenty of other examples will show, accidents with guns occur among "better-than-average" or even "well-trained" individuals also. Gun safety is pretty simple and the average 9-year old can learn all the rules in under 5 minutes. The major cause of gun accidents is attitude. That's not something that can easily be taught, if at all. One can preach it, and one can lead by example. But whether an individual has a personal resolve to follow safe gun handling procedures strictly and all times is ultimately up to that individual. And that isn't a matter of how much training one has received. Same as driving your car. You KNOW you're supposed to stop at a red light, and you KNOW you're supposed to signal when changing lanes, and you KNOW you ought to maintain a certain distance between your vehicle and those ahead of you. Whether you do it or not isn't a matter of training or knowledge. It's a matter of how much you have personally decided to make it a part of how you behave with a vehicle-- or a gun. And it holds equally true whether you're 16 years old with a couple of months of driving experience, or 50 years old with decades of driving experience. Same for a gun.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby rabble » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:42 am

Dangerousman wrote:
rabble wrote:Okay, there you go. If you do something stupid with your gun and you're a police chief, you suggest to the mayor that she should suspend you for a day, and then she does.

Well that pretty much covers all the bases. We're safe as kittens.


No. You're missing the point. People here have been suggesting that accidents with guns occur due to inadequate training.

No I'm not. I asked a question and you responded by answering somebody else's question.

There ain't nuthin in a concealed carry permit that lets them reconsider the permit if the carrier fucks up, is there?

Now that you've established the fact that even trained people fuck up, we now know that they can still carry a gun no matter how many times they keep fucking up.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:45 am

Dangerousman wrote:Same as driving your car. You KNOW you're supposed to stop at a red light, and you KNOW you're supposed to signal when changing lanes, and you KNOW you ought to maintain a certain distance between your vehicle and those ahead of you. Whether you do it or not isn't a matter of training or knowledge. It's a matter of how much you have personally decided to make it a part of how you behave with a vehicle-- or a gun.


I totally agree, but, with a car, if you fuck up and get caught then there is a penalty. Why not the same if you have an "accident" with your gun.

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Re: Wouldn't it be great if everybody had a gun?

Postby DCB » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:21 am

Stebben84 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Same as driving your car. You KNOW you're supposed to stop at a red light, and you KNOW you're supposed to signal when changing lanes, and you KNOW you ought to maintain a certain distance between your vehicle and those ahead of you. Whether you do it or not isn't a matter of training or knowledge. It's a matter of how much you have personally decided to make it a part of how you behave with a vehicle-- or a gun.


I totally agree, but, with a car, if you fuck up and get caught then there is a penalty. Why not the same if you have an "accident" with your gun.

Yes, there should be consequences to making potentially deadly mistakes.

I also think we should make reasonable efforts to prevent these mistakes in the first place.
Dangerousman wrote:accidents with guns occur among "better-than-average" or even "well-trained" individuals also

I think he's saying, there is nothing you can do to prevent these type of accidents, so you just have to accept it.

Yes, these types of accidents can't be prevented just by getting a certificate for X hours of training. But I don't think we have to accept it. For example, we don't have to allow guns on public buses, where these kinds of accidents could lead to tragedy.


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