Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

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Mad Howler
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:00 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:I had exactly the same thought reading that bit. I guess its a good thing that the new pope is making "Catholics" aware of the church's teachings on wealth, but really wtf. How does it matter if you believe in Jesus's divinity and that he's the son of god and all that but manage to ignore all the things he said between his birth and dying?


Could you,
Would you,
Remind us of the 'between' things?
If this matters to you,
It matters to me as well.
This wrestling...

Igor
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Igor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:49 am

peripat wrote:What? You don't get that the only point of modern religion is the fact that you can use it to establish your superiority over everyone else?


Wow. I guess I have been doing it wrong all these years. I am guilty of feeling superior about my height, but I don't think that is what you are talking about.

Mad Howler
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:07 am

How many agitating here have been 'schooled' by religion?
Many,
I suspect.
Whether I/WE like it or not,
It matters.
Therein lies the rub.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Stebben84 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:40 pm

Archbishop Jozef Wesolowski's Extradition Declined: Former Papal Nuncio Accused Of Sex Abuse Remains In Vatican

The Warsaw Office of the Prosecutor reported the the Vatican had tersely replied to their extradition request, saying that "Archbishop Wesolowski is a citizen of the Vatican, and Vatican law does not allow for his extradition," according to Catholic Culture.


More of the same. So much for change.

Mad Howler
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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Mad Howler » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:40 am

Stebben84 wrote:Archbishop Jozef Wesolowski's Extradition Declined: Former Papal Nuncio Accused Of Sex Abuse Remains In Vatican

The Warsaw Office of the Prosecutor reported the the Vatican had tersely replied to their extradition request, saying that "Archbishop Wesolowski is a citizen of the Vatican, and Vatican law does not allow for his extradition," according to Catholic Culture.


More of the same. So much for change.

The rabble of the faith just cannot punch through this,
Can they?
We think in decades,
The catholic church has had many centuries.
People are funny animals.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby FJD » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:11 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Archbishop Jozef Wesolowski's Extradition Declined: Former Papal Nuncio Accused Of Sex Abuse Remains In Vatican

The Warsaw Office of the Prosecutor reported the the Vatican had tersely replied to their extradition request, saying that "Archbishop Wesolowski is a citizen of the Vatican, and Vatican law does not allow for his extradition," according to Catholic Culture.


More of the same. So much for change.


How far did you get in the article before posting it? I'm guessing the head line and maybe the first paragraph which is a shame, because reading further would have provided some evidence of actual change.

Lombardi did confirm that Wesolowski was being investigated by two separate Vatican tribunals for alleged canonical crimes and violations of the Vatican city state's criminal code. Canon law convictions can result in being defrocked; convictions in the Vatican's civil tribunals can carry jail terms.

The criminal code was updated last summer to criminalize sexual violence against children. Lombardi said it would be up to legal experts to determine if the new law can be applied retroactively, or if the Vatican's previous laws would cover Wesolowski's case. Sexual crimes did exist in the previous law, but in a general form in the archaic code as a crime against "good customs."


It's important to remember that besides being a church, the Catholic church is also a legally recognized state with laws and citizens who have rights defined by those laws. I'd also point out that the crime in question seems to have occurred while the jackass in question was an ambassador, so he also had diplomatic immunity.

Now if the church decides to ignore evidence against this dillhole and just hide him away in some out of the way monastery without a trial, I'd agree with you, but so far evidence seems to be that they are actively pursuing a case against him.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:28 pm

Are you really holding out any expectation that the Vatican is going to actually punish this guy? Now that is some serious faith. If they do put him on trial, will his punishment be anything resembling justice? Will they pay restitution to those whose lives he ruined? I doubt it, and I'll bet you do too.
Francis Di Domizio wrote:Now if the church decides to ignore evidence against this dillhole and just hide him away in some out of the way monastery without a trial, I'd agree with you, but so far evidence seems to be that they are actively pursuing a case against him.
I would argue that the evidence seems to be that they plan to tell the world they are investigating and then do next-to-nothing, which is almost exactly what they've always done, new criminal code or not. I guess it's "progress" that this dickweed is basically a prisoner of the Vatican and not just being shuffled off to abuse children in a new locale, right?

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby FJD » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:37 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Are you really holding out any expectation that the Vatican is going to actually punish this guy? Now that is some serious faith. If they do put him on trial, will his punishment be anything resembling justice? Will they pay restitution to those whose lives he ruined? I doubt it, and I'll bet you do too.
Francis Di Domizio wrote:Now if the church decides to ignore evidence against this dillhole and just hide him away in some out of the way monastery without a trial, I'd agree with you, but so far evidence seems to be that they are actively pursuing a case against him.
I would argue that the evidence seems to be that they plan to tell the world they are investigating and then do next-to-nothing, which is almost exactly what they've always done, new criminal code or not. I guess it's "progress" that this dickweed is basically a prisoner of the Vatican and not just being shuffled off to abuse children in a new locale, right?


I can't say as I'm overwhelmingly confident that he's going to be convicted or even face charges, but given the new leadership in place, and the changes in attitude that have come with it, I'm at least willing to see what comes of their investigation before assuming nothing will be different.

I would be curious as to what "Jail" in the vatican actually entails. I know there are probably facilities that at one time were intended for prisoners, but they are probably a few centuries out of date with what we would consider humane conditions. Not that I see a problem with them being used in this case.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:11 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:How far did you get in the article before posting it?


I did read the whole article and saw the part that you posted.

Francis Di Domizio wrote:It's important to remember that besides being a church, the Catholic church is also a legally recognized state with laws and citizens who have rights defined by those laws.


And I think that's complete and utter bullshit that the "church" is a recognized state. The pope, in my opinion, has the power as head of the Catholic church to let them extradite this guy. Let him be tried by the same courts as the rest of us.

I'm not holding my breath that anything will come of this. Oh, maybe he'll be defrocked.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:24 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:... given the new leadership in place, and the changes in attitude that have come with it ...

I've heard about changes in attitude but I've yet to see any consequence of them. As I keep saying, so far, it's all just a lot of talk and absolutely no action. So basically, just better PR. The Vatican is still excommunciating priests who dare suggest maybe women shouldn't be treated like second class citizens, they're still actively against allowing the use of contraception, and they're still hoarding enough wealth to actually help the poor people they speak so highly of. And so on. This case would be a perfect opportunity for Francis to prove to the world that he actually means business, but all I'm seeing is business as usual.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby wack wack » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:33 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:It's important to remember that besides being a church, the Catholic church is also a legally recognized state with laws and citizens who have rights defined by those laws.


And I think that's complete and utter bullshit that the "church" is a recognized state. The pope, in my opinion, has the power as head of the Catholic church to let them extradite this guy. Let him be tried by the same courts as the rest of us.

I'm not holding my breath that anything will come of this. Oh, maybe he'll be defrocked.


Let's clarify: while the Vatican City is indeed it's own state, the entire Catholic church is not.

I understand the disgust, but The Vatican's response really was a state response, not a church response.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:41 pm

wack wack wrote:I understand the disgust, but The Vatican's response really was a state response, not a church response.

The pope is an absolute monarch. He is the state.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby FJD » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:46 pm

Stebben84 wrote:And I think that's complete and utter bullshit that the "church" is a recognized state.


Can't say as I disagree with you, but that doesn't actually change how they operate. The Vatican is a sovereign state and has been for 85 years. You can thank Mussolini.

Stebben84 wrote:The pope, in my opinion, has the power as head of the Catholic church to let them extradite this guy. Let him be tried by the same courts as the rest of us.


"The rest of us" are (theoretically) protected from unilateral actions by our head of state. If Vatican law prohibits extradition then the Pope would be violating dillhole's legal rights. Even if the Pope changed the law now I imagine there would be questionable legal standing to extradite for a past crime. Not sure of the legal systems of the Vatican, but Archbishop Wesolowski could probably put up a strong fight against any extradition.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby FJD » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:58 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:... given the new leadership in place, and the changes in attitude that have come with it ...

I've heard about changes in attitude but I've yet to see any consequence of them.


he's been Pope for less than a year now. With an organization as inert as the Catholic church, any change is going to take time to appear. He has actually taken the Papacy in a completely new direction from his predecessors and has also pushed for his underlings to follow that same root.

I doubt he is ever going to address all the changes you mentioned, but that doesn't mean the changes he has made or will make should be discounted.
As you stated this would be an awesome time for him to show that the church is going to come down hard on child abusers. But if he is going to do that it has to be through a systematic approach not by Papal decree. Proving that he's going to take a stand against child abuse is not the same as proving the church necessarily is.

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Re: Pope Francis keeps talking social justice

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:09 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:He has actually taken the Papacy in a completely new direction...
No, he has talked about new directions. Why is there such a disconnect between words and actions when it comes to the Pope? Would you be so forgiving of a politician who talks about equality and than votes against it? Francis has had several opportunities to DO something and has declined action in every case that I am aware of.
Francis Di Domizio wrote:... the changes he has made or will make should be discounted.
What changes has he made? All he's done is TALK.
Francis Di Domizio wrote:As you stated this would be an awesome time for him to show that the church is going to come down hard on child abusers. But if he is going to do that it has to be through a systematic approach not by Papal decree. Proving that he's going to take a stand against child abuse is not the same as proving the church necessarily is.
As Henry has already pointed out, the Pope IS the Church. What he says goes. He could have stopped the excommunication of this priest, for example, but he chose not to. He could have moved for extradition for the child molester we've been discussing, but he chose not to. And yes, there may well have been legal restrictions he would have then had to fight, but he chose not to engage in that fight. I'm sorry, but we're talking in circles here. What has Francis DONE to deserve all the praise he's been receiving. Because again, it just looks to me like he's better at PR than previous Popes while the Catholic Church remains one of the largest and richest criminal conspiracies the world has ever known.


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