The gun thread

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DCB
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Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:18 pm

narcoleptish wrote:Maybe we don't really need to know what the suspect was wearing and what the make and model of each of his fucking guns was and what was his exact path through the school and who gives a flying fuck that a former schoolmate described the suspect as...BIG SURPRISE HERE....."quiet" and "reserved".
Exactly how many bullets did he shoot? how many of them were deadly? WE NEED TO KNOW.

Or not. Maybe this is more important:
But the truth is that there's still about 20 mass killings every year in this country, and that has been true for decades. There are about 100 to 150 victims of mass murder. Now that sounds terrible, and it is. It's tragic. But keep in mind that that number pales against the some 15,000 single-victim homicides in this country on an annual basis, and that's really where the problem lies.

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/14/167287373 ... depression

That's five 9/11-scale tragedies every year. Just one lead a wholesale compromise of our civil liberties: Gitmo, torture, secret wiretapping, secret kill lists. But for some reason the second amendment is the only right on which no compromise is possible.

I share everyone's sadness over the most recent mass killing. And if it shocks the public into taking gun violence seriously, that would be a good thing. But forgive me if I sound insensitive here, but where is your outrage the other 345 days of the year?

Galoot
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Galoot » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:03 pm

Yep, the rate of gun deaths in the U.S. makes us a third world country, really. Here are the 11 countries with higher per-capita gun death rates than the U.S.--El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Colombia, Brazil, Panama, Mexico, Philippines, and South Africa. Great company to have in this list. By this measure, it seems fair to call the U.S. a third world country.

I see zero reason not to repeal the 2nd amendment, and that is a pretty major change for me. I've owned guns in the past, I understand, and to a degree I even sympathize with the argument that an armed populace is a protection against tyrants. But the sort of guns you can buy are nothing, against the might of the U.S. military. On the other hand, they are effective enough to allow mass slaughter of dozens of innocent children within minutes.

That is just unacceptable. There is nothing you can say to the parents of those children to make them feel better, other than "we are going to try to make sure this can never happen again".

fennel
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Re: The gun thread

Postby fennel » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:35 pm

Galoot wrote:... to a degree I even sympathize with the argument that an armed populace is a protection against tyrants.
I've never understood this. What possible use are mere firearms going to be against the military? If the U.S. government becomes tyrannical and doesn't like you, you're toast. No stockpile of assault weapons will do anything but possibly forestall the inevitable for a few seconds.

If you're a really good hacker, on the other hand ...

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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:30 pm

Add to this year's list of in-home homicide victims gun enthusiast Nancy Lanza, mother of shooter Adam Lanza. Mrs. Lanza's guns did not protect her against her own son nor save her son's other 26 victims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyreg ... ml?hp&_r=0

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Meade » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:38 pm

snoqueen wrote:Add to this year's list of in-home homicide victims...

Would you happen to have that list, snoqueen? I suppose it has increased quite a lot every year since 2004 when the Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired, huh? I wonder - just how much has homicide in America increased since colonial times? I'm sure it must be a significant increase, no?

Donald
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Donald » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:54 pm

The reality is the 2nd Amendment is not going to be repealed. Many of us, even those of us who think it's cuckoo to allow the sale of automatic and semi-automatic weapons with huge clips or magazines, grew up with guns in the home, and don't view most guns with horror.

I don't have a gun now because I gave up hunting long ago. Hunting is the only reason I can see for a civilian to possess firearms. Generally those aren't the kinds of weapons that crooks and psychopaths use to off people. I personally have no problem banning people killing weapons.

People owning weapons other than hunting guns need to be registered and that means a hell of a lot of training and background checks, including psychological testing. Most people aren't fit to have weapons. See, I agree it isn't the gun that kills people, it's the freaking people. So let's keep the people killing guns out of people's hands.

I can understand the self-defense argumentup to a point. If you regularly put yourself in dangerous situations, and particularly if you're a woman, a gun makes you feel safer. But don't you think the best solution is not to put yourself in dangerous situations?

The excuse that you are going to use a gun to blast away some home invader is just nonsense. You have a better chance of offing your spouce or child.

During the Nixon, Reagan and GW Bush administrations I came to the conclusion, which I never acted on, that I should be "armed and progressive." Let's just say it was my bout of paranoia about the turn our government was taking during those years. The thing that distinguishes most paranoid progressives from paranoid conservatives is that progressives acutally recognize the federal government has, you know, nuclear weapons, drones, etc. We tend not to be suicidal.

Mad Howler
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Mad Howler » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:17 am

Donald, I am pissed and I am very much behind your take.

Dman, WTF? No opinion?

Bdog, the gum thread 'was' a good relief.

The following letter reflects much of my opinion on this subject.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2 ... eality.php

MH

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Igor » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:04 am

Donald wrote:The excuse that you are going to use a gun to blast away some home invader is just nonsense. You have a better chance of offing your spouce or child.


That is true - but I think probably the more common mindset is "I would rather die trying to do *something* to stop an attack on my family, than watch them be attacked while I did nothing." Not saying it makes any mathematical sense.

Mad Howler
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Mad Howler » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:20 am

Igor wrote:Not saying it makes any mathematical sense.


God Damn It! Your f-Ing right! Some thing are definitely, not, adding up. Ever had your flesh sliced by a bullet? Maybe not but the probability has been exponentially increased.

snoqueen
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:20 pm

Dman, WTF? No opinion?


Maybe he has little kids who go to a school.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby bleurose » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:15 pm

ourobus,

You are one of the naive ones if you continue to think that easy, unfettered access to guns in this country is NOT inextricably wound up in these incidents. OF COURSE IT IS. While I absolutely agree that the treatment of mental illness in the US is abysmal and it positively needs to be addressed as part of the solution, there is no way you can make a claim that easy gun access is not part of the problem. That makes you as bad as the rest of the gun apologists.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:22 pm

ouroborus4 wrote:
pjbogart wrote:I blame gun advocates for the deaths of these 27 people...



To blame anybody other than the gunman is irresponsible and offensive.


Does it make you feel better to believe this? It's patently ridiculous, but if it makes you feel better...

How about the (now dead) mother who appears to have 1) known that her son was mentally disturbed, and 2) not only kept firearms, but trained said mentally disturbed son in how to use them? She doesn't bear any blame for this?

rabble
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Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:42 pm

This is an extremely well written article on why we should be talking about mental illness instead of guns.

Personally I think we should also be talking about guns but Ms Long makes sound arguments that our current mental illness treatment processes do no one any good. Not the patient, the family, or the country. We aren't helping anybody. We're just filling prisons.

DCB
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Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:47 pm

snoqueen wrote:
Dman, WTF? No opinion?


Maybe he has little kids who go to a school.

and he realize they need extra target practice.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:07 pm

rabble wrote:This is an extremely well written article on why we should be talking about mental illness instead of guns.

Personally I think we should also be talking about guns but Ms Long makes sound arguments that our current mental illness treatment processes do no one any good. Not the patient, the family, or the country. We aren't helping anybody. We're just filling prisons.


Unfortunately, whether you want to discuss limiting guns or increasing mental health care, you'll be arguing largely with the same group of people.


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