The gun thread

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:57 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:And nothing in the Second say anything about felons being forbidden from gun possession.


Then we'll expect you to be the first in line to step up and protect their constitutional rights.

Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:05 pm

snoqueen wrote:The way I'm reading this, if TM had a gun and had turned around and shot GZ, apparently that would have been perfectly OK.


Well you're reading it in a strange way if you think you can legally shoot someone "because he was following me."

You people are pretty violent.

penquin
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1667
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:43 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:And nothing in the Second say anything about felons being forbidden from gun possession.


There is nothing in the Constitution about felons losing their right to vote for life either, but several states do exactly that. And when it comes to banning firearm possession, it ain't just about felons. Being convicted of some misdemeanors can also result in a lifetime ban on that basic right. And actually, no criminal conviction is needed in some situations: simply using an illegal substance is enough to prevent a person from legally possessing a firearm. (And yes Henry, I know you still refuse to admit that is true...but the links posted earlier are pretty damn clear about it)

Personally, I think that if someone is so dangerous that you need to ban them, for life, from exercising their Constitutional Rights then they need to actually remain in prison until they are no longer considered a danger. But it seems that I am a minority with that opinion, 'cause many folks...on both the right & left....favor a lifetime ban of at least one basic right for convicted criminals.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 23708
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:17 am

penquin wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:And nothing in the Second say anything about felons being forbidden from gun possession.

There is nothing in the Constitution about felons losing their right to vote for life either, but several states do exactly that.

Au contraire. The 14th Amendment specifically allows states to do that.

"...right to vote at any election... in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime..."

The Supreme Court, the final arbiter of the Constitution, says the crime must be a felony in order to lose the right to vote.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 14044
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:59 am

Dangerousman wrote:
snoqueen wrote:The way I'm reading this, if TM had a gun and had turned around and shot GZ, apparently that would have been perfectly OK.


Well you're reading it in a strange way if you think you can legally shoot someone "because he was following me."

You people are pretty violent.


How is that different from standing one's ground when threatened? I think we can agree being followed -- deliberately, not just because two people are going the same way -- is threatening. In an earlier post in this topic I said I would feel threatened being followed and I didn't get a lot of disagreement. Following someone is a form of stalking (a threatening behavior), against which we already have laws (centered originally on domestic abuse).

I'm saying these stand your ground laws are open to such wide interpretation they protect behavior nearly anybody would consider violent and unacceptable. Florida state senator Christopher Smith wrote (before the verdict) to the governor asking for an immediate review of the Florida law because of the way it's abused on an ongoing basis. He gave cases showing why he and many others think the way the law is written pretty much invites this abuse:

http://www.floridastandyourground.org/
from there click link to 2-page pdf "CLICK HERE TO SEE MY LETTER TO THE GOVERNOR"

The senator writes:

There have been ample reports collected since its passage in 2005 of the law being used to shield individuals from prosecution after violent confrontations.


The Tampa Bay Times examined the issue last year and found nearly 70 percent of those invoking the law got off. They wrote:
People often go free under "stand your ground" in cases that seem to make a mockery of what lawmakers intended.


I don't know what the lawmakers down there intended, but it's hard to read this report without wondering if the law is working the way any reasonable person would find desirable. In addition, application of the law has been wildly uneven by anybody's measure, so it's hard for a gun-user to know any kind of guidelines as to what is acceptable and what isn't, if he or she tries to know ahead of time.

Interesting, detailed reading regardless of one's beliefs on gun usage. If you're confused now about this law, the article will show you've got good reason. Everybody's confused, even those who are supposed to enforce it.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 23708
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:44 am

All the faults in stand your ground laws won't deter the NRA and their lackeys in state legislatures from supporting those laws. 22 states currently have them.

'Stand your ground' laws likely here to stay

DCB
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3873
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:15 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:And nothing in the Second say anything about felons being forbidden from gun possession.


Then we'll expect you to be the first in line to step up and protect their constitutional rights.

I'm no constitutional scholar. But if violent felons have a right to carry guns, then we should fix the constitution. Because that violates my right to be safe.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 23708
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:31 pm

DCB wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:And nothing in the Second say anything about felons being forbidden from gun possession.

Then we'll expect you to be the first in line to step up and protect their constitutional rights.

I'm no constitutional scholar. But if violent felons have a right to carry guns, then we should fix the constitution. Because that violates my right to be safe.

No rights are absolute when they come into conflict with other rights. The First Amendment starts with "Congress shall made no law..." abridging certain rights, yet the rights mentioned in the First have been limited by Congress and have withstood constitutional challenges in the Supreme Court.

As the Supreme Court has affirmed, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:03 am

snoqueen wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
snoqueen wrote:The way I'm reading this, if TM had a gun and had turned around and shot GZ, apparently that would have been perfectly OK.


Well you're reading it in a strange way if you think you can legally shoot someone "because he was following me."

You people are pretty violent.


How is that different from standing one's ground when threatened? I think we can agree being followed -- deliberately, not just because two people are going the same way -- is threatening. In an earlier post in this topic I said I would feel threatened being followed and I didn't get a lot of disagreement. Following someone is a form of stalking (a threatening behavior), against which we already have laws (centered originally on domestic abuse).


How is it different? First of all, you don't seem to understand that "stand your ground" applies to defending yourself against someone who is reasonably believed to be violating the law. While you may feel disturbed about someone following you, you don't simply get to become violent with that person because they make you feel apprehensive and then claim you acted in self-defense. You might want to ask yourself why your threshold for using violence is so darn low.

penquin
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1667
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:30 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Au contraire. The 14th Amendment specifically allows states to do that.


Thanks for clearing that up.

So it looks like at least the ballot-deniers have the Constitution on their side when it comes to their quest to deny "those people" their basic rights. Is there anything in the document about citizens losing any other basic rights as well or are the gun-grabbers just making it up as they go?

The Supreme Court, the final arbiter of the Constitution, says the crime must be a felony in order to lose the right to vote.


Do you support that stance?

HawkHead
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1613
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby HawkHead » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:24 am

Dangerousman wrote:
snoqueen wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
Well you're reading it in a strange way if you think you can legally shoot someone "because he was following me."

You people are pretty violent.


How is that different from standing one's ground when threatened? I think we can agree being followed -- deliberately, not just because two people are going the same way -- is threatening. In an earlier post in this topic I said I would feel threatened being followed and I didn't get a lot of disagreement. Following someone is a form of stalking (a threatening behavior), against which we already have laws (centered originally on domestic abuse).


How is it different? First of all, you don't seem to understand that "stand your ground" applies to defending yourself against someone who is reasonably believed to be violating the law. While you may feel disturbed about someone following you, you don't simply get to become violent with that person because they make you feel apprehensive and then claim you acted in self-defense. You might want to ask yourself why your threshold for using violence is so darn low.


That you don't get it is disturbing. If I have killed the only witness I can claim that he attacked me first.

Maybe he attacked me first, maybe he didn't and I just murdered someone and won't be going to jail.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 23708
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:11 am

The unintended consequences of stand your ground laws:

Florida's "stand your ground'' law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free.
...
Seven years since it was passed, Florida's "stand your ground" law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.

fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 7982
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison
Contact:

Re: The gun thread

Postby fisticuffs » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:20 am

Henry Vilas wrote:The unintended consequences of stand your ground laws:

Florida's "stand your ground'' law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free.
...
Seven years since it was passed, Florida's "stand your ground" law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.


I don;t know anything about TampaBay.com but seeing as how this article goes against my ideological preconceptions I'm going to say they are a left wing rag that's not to be trusted. I do however reserve the right to use them as basis for any argument in which their reporting supports mine.

FJD
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3538
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby FJD » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:11 pm

Yet another Milwaukee dumbass with a gun...

Shooter had been arrested and the DA is reviewing for charges.

HawkHead
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1613
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby HawkHead » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:35 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The unintended consequences of stand your ground laws:

Florida's "stand your ground'' law has allowed drug dealers to avoid murder charges and gang members to walk free.
...
Seven years since it was passed, Florida's "stand your ground" law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.


Also from the article:

In nearly a third of the cases the Times analyzed, defendants initiated the fight, shot an unarmed person or pursued their victim — and still went free.


Return to “Headlines”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests