The gun thread

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Henry Vilas
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:47 am

Guns can kill (actually, it's the bullets). Votes, not so much.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:49 am

Low information voters are killing our state.

That aside, if one beleives that producing a simple ID is considered too much of a burden for one basic right (and yes, I'm against VoterID laws as well) then how can one claim that all these other burdens/costs/classes/background-checks are reasonable&acceptable for another basic right?

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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:11 pm

Compulsory education laws ensure that everyone raised to voting age in the United States has been trained in civics and voting. They may not have learned it, but they were taught.

As much as it might pain you, the idea that low information voters kill is philosophical. Firearms concerns are practical.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby HawkHead » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:17 pm

I believe the Wisconsin Constitution does require compulsory education. I know that isn't the US Constitution.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:46 pm

snoqueen wrote:Do you also believe people should be able to get a driver's license without training, experience driving on a road, a vision exam and a road test, and passing a written test of driving laws?


No.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:51 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Do you also believe people should be able to get a driver's license without training, experience driving on a road, a vision exam and a road test, and passing a written test of driving laws?


No.


Would it be fair to say that you believe in mandated training for driving, but not for guns, because those are mentioned in the constitution.

Both can be incredibly dangerous, but simply having the second amendment trumps safety issues?

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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:14 pm

...the problem with that comparison is that driving a vehicle on public roads isn't a protected right under the Constitution. A better question to ask would be "Should people be allowed to vote without training, experience in civics, a vision test and a test on how to fill out a ballot, and passing a written test of voting laws?"


Actually, as we're finding out, the right to vote is not in the US Constitution either.

from another post:

Would it be fair to say that you believe in mandated training for driving, but not for guns, because those are mentioned in the constitution.

Both can be incredibly dangerous, but simply having the second amendment trumps safety issues?


That's exactly right. The second amendment crowd puts the letter of the Bill of Rights ahead of considerations of safety and public well-being.

We keep running up against this fact, repeatedly, in our discussion here. I say laws are our servants, not our master and certainly not some unchangeable text similar to a religious document. The opposition opinion seems to be (correct me if I'm saying this wrong -- it's not my intent to misstate this) "the founders wrote it back in the 1700s and it should stand, unchangeable, as long as there's a USA."

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:29 pm

snoqueen wrote:Actually, as we're finding out, the right to vote is not in the US Constitution either.

While not in the original document, it is mentioned (tangentially) in the 15th, 19th, 24th and 26th Amendments.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:36 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Do you also believe people should be able to get a driver's license without training, experience driving on a road, a vision exam and a road test, and passing a written test of driving laws?


No.


Would it be fair to say that you believe in mandated training for driving, but not for guns, because those are mentioned in the constitution.

Both can be incredibly dangerous, but simply having the second amendment trumps safety issues?


Having recently gone through a war against the most powerful military force of the era the framers of the US Constitution were certainly aware that weapons can be dangerous. The potential for danger is exactly what they wanted to protect. I think the fact that the right to bear arms is protected by both the federal and state constitutions is only one part of the picture.

But if you want to compare operating a gun with operating a motor vehicle it's a very poor comparison. In terms of mechanical complexity alone, a gun is more comparable to a single-speed bicycle than to a motor vehicle. They're very simple machines. They've been around in various forms since the 13th Century. And their operation has gotten simpler, not more difficult. I own both an 1858 Remington black powder revolver and a Ruger GP-100 .357 magnum whose design dates back to the mid-1980's. Would you care to guess which is more simple to use?

To operate a bicycle in public requires no formal training nor a license and kids can do it. And despite the fact that kids on bikes probably get injured and killed with much greater frequency than they do with firearms, I see no big push to require formal training or license requirement for people who ride bikes.

The only comparison I make of carrying a gun to driving a vehicle is this: In my classes I encourage people who are carrying a gun in public to maintain a level of awareness to their surroundings that is comparable to attentive driving. They do not have to walk the streets of Wisconsin as if they're in Falujah in 2004. Because if you do that, you're either paranoid or in a very bad place-- and the odds favor paranoia as the explanation. But when we drive we are paranoid, we are calm and attentive. Simple as that. And I don't think that recommending that level of awareness is good advice only for people who chose to go armed with a gun.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:51 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
snoqueen wrote:Actually, as we're finding out, the right to vote is not in the US Constitution either.

While not in the original document, it is mentioned (tangentially) in the 15th, 19th, 24th and 26th Amendments.


I think it's in "the original document." There was really no need to express voting as a "right" considering the form of the government described by the Constitution necessarily entails voting for it to exist. Insofar as it is described as a "right" it is generally in response to questions about who among the population is included or excluded from doing it. But voting per se is implicit in the form of government that was chosen for the United States. So you can no more describe a representative republic without the concept of voting than you can describe weather on a planet that has no atmosphere.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:57 pm

Volting rights weren't mentioned in the original document because of the existence chattel slavery.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:03 pm

Women couldn't vote in national elections until the 19th amendment was ratified in 1920. So, if our original constitution implied a right to vote, that right in actuality extended to less than half the population in the beginning and was not affirmatively stated.

More evidence the original form of the constitution was imperfect and incomplete and has needed updating from time to time.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:37 pm

snoqueen wrote:Women couldn't vote in national elections until the 19th amendment was ratified in 1920. So, if our original constitution implied a right to vote, that right in actuality extended to less than half the population in the beginning and was not affirmatively stated.

More evidence the original form of the constitution was imperfect and incomplete and has needed updating from time to time.


Woman's suffrage didn't come about through a change in the legal interpretation of the Constitution but by drafting and ratifying an amendment to change it's meaning. Despite the large numbers supporting new gun control legislation, no similar push has been made to amend the second. Are gun control activists unwilling to go through that process or just realize that support for that type of change just isn't there yet?

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Dangerousman wrote:But if you want to compare operating a gun with operating a motor vehicle it's a very poor comparison. In terms of mechanical complexity alone, a gun is more comparable to a single-speed bicycle than to a motor vehicle.


How many times has a bicycle ran into and killed another person? Nice dodge of the question.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:But if you want to compare operating a gun with operating a motor vehicle it's a very poor comparison. In terms of mechanical complexity alone, a gun is more comparable to a single-speed bicycle than to a motor vehicle.


How many times has a bicycle ran into and killed another person? Nice dodge of the question.


I didn't dodge your question at all, I answered it directly. You asked if I believe in mandated training for a drivers and not for gun owners simply because the 2nd Amendment trumps safety concerns. My response clearly states that I don't believe it simply because of the 2nd Amendment. And I explained why.

How many times bikes run into people and kill them is not really relevant is it? Maybe you can explain why you think it is?


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