The gun thread

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Dangerousman
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Sat May 11, 2013 6:29 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Some people think that guns in the home should be at the ready (loaded and not locked up) in case of a home invasion. Yet if those people have children, tragedy often ensues.

Guns in the home proving deadly for kids

Although mass shootings get more attention, children are far more likely to be killed at home.

Through homicide, suicide and accidents, guns cause twice as many deaths in young people as cancer, five times as many as heart disease and 15 times as many as infections, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.


Well, nice article that is all over the place and doesn't bother to provide any data to examine. The story of "Brian" was from 1997.

http://www.stophandgunviolence.com/brian.asp

Don't you think it's a bit odd to compare causes of death for cancer and heart disease in young people, when cancer and heart disease are afflictions that predominately affect people as they get older and are relatively uncommon among children? Looks like a nice attempt to sensationalize and distort things.

And while the story pretends to be all about guns in the home, they don't bother to make a distinction or identify how many of the mentioned actually occur in the home and how many occur outside the home. They're perfectly willing to include deaths during hunting accidents and gang-related shootings: things that have little if anything to do with proper gun storage at home. The don't even both to identify young people by age group. So while everyone is imagining little kids getting killed these articles typically include older teens and young adults.

For a more object perspective on it you're better off looking at information from the Center for Disease Control:

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/leadingcauses.html

Looking at the information on non-fatal injuries treated at emergency rooms show that gun-related injuries don't crack the top ten in any age group, whereas falls generally top the list, along with bites and stings, motor vehicle injuries, unintentional cuts and punctures, and so on....

Of course nothing excuses allowing unauthorized access to your firearm at home or anywhere. But it is certainly possible to safely have a loaded firearm in the home, even with children present. Keeping it under the pillow isn't the way to do it.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sun May 12, 2013 6:56 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Some people think that guns in the home should be at the ready (loaded and not locked up) in case of a home invasion. Yet if those people have children, tragedy often ensues.

Guns in the home proving deadly for kids

Although mass shootings get more attention, children are far more likely to be killed at home.

Through homicide, suicide and accidents, guns cause twice as many deaths in young people as cancer, five times as many as heart disease and 15 times as many as infections, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.


Kid's dying from gun accidents in the home isn't a gun control issue, it's a stupid control issue. If your child can get at your weapons when you are not present you are absolutely a fucking idiot. While I'm generally not in favor of trying to legislate stupidity away, guns in homes with children should absolutely be required to be securely stored. Hell, even if you don't have children your guns and ammo should be secured.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun May 12, 2013 7:48 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:... guns in homes with children should absolutely be required to be securely stored. Hell, even if you don't have children your guns and ammo should be secured.

Don't tell me, tell DMan.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sun May 12, 2013 10:34 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:... guns in homes with children should absolutely be required to be securely stored. Hell, even if you don't have children your guns and ammo should be secured.

Don't tell me, tell DMan.



You think he can't read the same sentence you read?

I don't know that I've ever noticed DMan advocating leaving firearms around where a child (or anyone else) could just grab it, in fact in his past post he kind of hinted at the opposite. I don't agree with his stance on gun rights, but I've never seen anything to make me think he didn't also an advocate being careful with their storage.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun May 12, 2013 10:59 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:... guns in homes with children should absolutely be required to be securely stored. Hell, even if you don't have children your guns and ammo should be secured.

Don't tell me, tell DMan.



You think he can't read the same sentence you read?

I don't know that I've ever noticed DMan advocating leaving firearms around where a child (or anyone else) could just grab it, in fact in his past post he kind of hinted at the opposite. I don't agree with his stance on gun rights, but I've never seen anything to make me think he didn't also an advocate being careful with their storage.

My statement was rhetorical. DMan probably doesn't have kids (maybe he will enlighten us), but he did say keeping a loaded firearm at the ready should be no problem, even if one does have children in the house.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun May 12, 2013 12:59 pm

Right now in Wisconsin, if an adults leaves an unsecured gun around the house and a kid gets it and there is an accident (or intentional shooting), the adult can be convicted of a felony and serve up to a year in prison. But in most cases, the local DAs don't prosecute, especially if the adult now has a dead child, as they figure that's punishment enough.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sun May 12, 2013 2:13 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Right now in Wisconsin, if an adults leaves an unsecured gun around the house and a kid gets it and there is an accident (or intentional shooting), the adult can be convicted of a felony and serve up to a year in prison. But in most cases, the local DAs don't prosecute, especially if the adult now has a dead child, as they figure that's punishment enough.


So you think the problem is that existing laws are not being enforced? How very right wing gun nut of you Henry. You aren't going to suddenly reveal a belief that corporations are people too, are you?

If I had to judge, I would say, losing your child is probably punishment enough, but they parent should face charges anyway. Not because their child is dead, but because of the children who are still alive. Maybe the next gun owner will think twice before leaving a gun somewhere accessible.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun May 12, 2013 2:23 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:So you think the problem is that existing laws are not being enforced?

No, I never said nor implied that. I just stated what often happens in such cases.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. That is not very becoming of you.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sun May 12, 2013 4:26 pm

Right now in Wisconsin, if an adults leaves an unsecured gun around the house and a kid gets it and there is an accident (or intentional shooting), the adult can be convicted of a felony and serve up to a year in prison. But in most cases, the local DAs don't prosecute, especially if the adult now has a dead child, as they figure that's punishment enough.


So you think the problem is that existing laws are not being enforced?

If I had to judge, I would say, losing your child is probably punishment enough, but they parent should face charges anyway.


There's a difference between not enforcing laws, and making the prosecutorial judgment call that the facts of a case do not fit certain charges, or the case has almost no chance of being convincing to a jury no matter what the prosecution does and says.

However, I agree a parent should face charges if their child uses a gun left unsecured in the house.The law should be written specifically to include those situations and should specify what type of homicide (or other crime) should be charged.

I think this is just about the only realistic way to use legislation to influence the behavior of people like the family in Tennessee whose four-year-old killed their two-year-old. Tragic, yes, but avoidable -- and while legislation telling people what to do in the privacy of their own homes is pretty hard to enforce, legislation spelling out specific consequences for one's choices might be seen as more fair, enforceable, and ultimately effective.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Sun May 12, 2013 7:10 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:My statement was rhetorical. DMan probably doesn't have kids (maybe he will enlighten us), but he did say keeping a loaded firearm at the ready should be no problem, even if one does have children in the house.


My kids are adults. When they were young, firearms were secured, out of sight and inaccessible and only brought out when in use. My son took hunter's safety when he was 12 and showed little interest in guns or hunting afterwards. He is a gun owner now and has taken a concealed carry course, but has not yet gotten his license. My daughter expressed interest in hunter's safety, but did not follow up on it. She expressed a curiously about guns around the time she was 15 or 16, so I took her shooting. Her curiosity was satisfied and she's never expressed a great interest in guns or shooting since. I don't pressure either one to shoot, because that's a personal choice for any individual.

Having a loaded gun in the house while children are around isn't a problem, as long as proper precautions are taken. As I mentioned earlier, keeping a loaded gun under a pillow doesn't qualify as a "proper precaution." You're responsible for the security of your guns at all times whether at home or on the street.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sun May 12, 2013 10:27 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:So you think the problem is that existing laws are not being enforced?

No, I never said nor implied that. I just stated what often happens in such cases.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. That is not very becoming of you.


Didn't mean to put words in your mouth, just had no idea what point you were trying to make.

snoqueen wrote:I think this is just about the only realistic way to use legislation to influence the behavior of people like the family in Tennessee whose four-year-old killed their two-year-old. Tragic, yes, but avoidable -- and while legislation telling people what to do in the privacy of their own homes is pretty hard to enforce, legislation spelling out specific consequences for one's choices might be seen as more fair, enforceable, and ultimately effective.


I'd say we are in 100% agreement on this. I hate to say make an example of someone, but I don't think anything else will do it.

Dangerousman wrote:When they were young, firearms were secured, out of sight and inaccessible and only brought out when in use.

More of a question for you, then commentary, but having been debating this issue in my head over the last few months, did you feel 100% confident that your children could not get access to your weapons?

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon May 13, 2013 8:28 am

The American Academy of Pediatrics is speaking out for reasonable gun legislation.

What the doctors want is an assault weapon ban, mandatory background checks and waiting periods before all firearm purchases, a ban on high-capacity magazines, handgun regulations and requirements for safe firearm storage under federal law.
...
“Where there are more guns in the United States, there are more people dying,” Dr. Matthew Miller of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center told the meeting in Washington, D.C.. “There are more women dying, there are more men dying, and there are more children dying. We are talking about a lot of people who are dying when they live in places with a lot of guns and homes with guns.”

Miller’s done research on gun deaths using what CDC data he could get -- dating from before Congress cut its funding.


Of course, the NRA is fighting this tooth and nail.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Mon May 13, 2013 10:26 am

Henry Vilas wrote:The American Academy of Pediatrics is speaking out for reasonable gun legislation.

What the doctors want is an assault weapon ban, mandatory background checks and waiting periods before all firearm purchases, a ban on high-capacity magazines, handgun regulations and requirements for safe firearm storage under federal law.
...
“Where there are more guns in the United States, there are more people dying,” Dr. Matthew Miller of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center told the meeting in Washington, D.C.. “There are more women dying, there are more men dying, and there are more children dying. We are talking about a lot of people who are dying when they live in places with a lot of guns and homes with guns.”

Miller’s done research on gun deaths using what CDC data he could get -- dating from before Congress cut its funding.


Of course, the NRA is fighting this tooth and nail.


Of course declaring something to be "reasonable" doesn't make it so. It's a right that "shall not be infringed" which suggests that regulations with a broad sweep such as mentioned in the article have a long uphill battle to show that they are reasonable.

Henry, would you care to explain to us your understanding of the meaning of "infringed?"

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon May 13, 2013 10:32 am

As I said before in reply to that assersion, the First Amendment says no laws are allowed to suppress the five rights mentioned. Yet reasonable laws are permitted, according to the Supreme Court. In Heller, they said the same thing about the Second.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Mon May 13, 2013 10:34 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:More of a question for you, then commentary, but having been debating this issue in my head over the last few months, did you feel 100% confident that your children could not get access to your weapons?


Yes, but as anyone who reads me carefully (which are few) knows, I make a distinction between what ones feels and what is actually the case. I wouldn't judge the security of how my firearms were stored based on how I feel, but on what I actually know to be true. That's why when I enter a business that has a "no guns" sign on the door, I neither feel safer, nor am I.


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