The gun thread

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rabble
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Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Thu May 09, 2013 2:31 pm

Okay, near as I can tell Ned's fine with printable guns. We'll see if he still feels that way in a couple years.

Francis Di Domizio
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu May 09, 2013 4:16 pm

rabble wrote:3D-Printed Gun's Blueprints Downloaded 100,000 Times In Two Days (With Some Help From Kim Dotcom)
If gun control advocates hoped to prevent blueprints for the world’s first fully 3D-printable gun from spreading online, that horse has now left the barn about a hundred thousand times.


The only certainty is that if there is a way to do it, someone will do it. The time when we could control who owns a gun is almost past.

All we'll be able to do is filter it, the degree of filter depending on how much we want to spend.


I think the time when we could control who owns guns passed a while ago tbh. As much as I'd like to see uniform background checks and eliminate online sales, the fact remains there are already far too many guns in the wild so to speak for us to ever get a solid grasp on all firearm sales (which doesn't mean we shouldn't fix the existing issues going forward).

As far as the latest 3d printed gun, I think it's more of a moment of intelectual curiosity then the opening bell for a new deludge of firearms. Yes, someone came up with an almost fully 3d printed hand gun but it's an incredibly bad, single shot weapon that isn't guaranteed to not explode in your hand when you pull the trigger. Right now it's a new technological feat in 3D engineering with plastic, which probably accounts for a large portion of those who downloaded the blueprints. No one looking to score a quick gun for illicit purposes is going to consider the Liberator when they can get something better and less expensive quicker and easier, nor is anyone looking for a gun for home or personal defense.

In a few more years we will definitly have a 3d gun that is more than a collectors item, and there is no harm in coming up with a plan for dealing with them, but in a way the Liberator ensured that people will start thinking about it long before it's a serrious issue. In fact one California State Senator is already trying to ban them. I don't think that's a reasonable answer, but it will get people thinking and talk.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu May 09, 2013 4:22 pm

I'm more worried about weaponry that can fire a lot of rounds in a very short period of time. Let me know when 3-D technology reaches that point.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 09, 2013 4:53 pm

What is the danger presented by 3-D printable guns? Only one, that I can think of--- the danger to the person trying to shoot a 99% all-plastic gun. (It uses a metal nail for a firing pin.) Otherwise it's a non-issue. There's no need to purchase a extremely expensive printer in order to make a gun of marginal utility and quality. It is completely legal to make a homemade gun for one's personal use. You can probably make a thousand higher quality metal homemade guns for the price of the cheapest 3-D printer. There's no need to register it unless you're making something that requires a federal tax stamp, e.g., a short barreled shotgun or a silencer. The 3-D printer gun is, as "gun guru" Jeff Cooper might say "an elegant solution to a non-existent problem."

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 09, 2013 4:56 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I'm more worried about weaponry that can fire a lot of rounds in a very short period of time. Let me know when 3-D technology reaches that point.


Well the purpose of the cheap single shot "Liberator" pistol of World War II was to use it to relieve the enemy of their higher quality firearm.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 09, 2013 4:57 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
I'm curious DM, what exactly would you describe those rights as being?


The right to keep and bear arms is the description I'd use.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 09, 2013 5:10 pm

Detritus wrote:
DCB wrote:Over here in the reality based community, we just want to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.

So, then, D-Man is right to be concerned?


Hardy harr harr...

I'll bet I've gone through far more background checks than you have. Military, security clearances, dozens of firearm purchases, concealed carry permits from four states plus renewals. Sooo.. you'll have to reconsider at least one of your premises. If you really think I'm crazy, you'll have to abandon your belief that background checks work. Now that little bit of ironclad logic I find hilarious.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu May 09, 2013 7:56 pm

Well apparently someone in the State Department Office of Defense Trade Controls Compliance wasn't too happy with a 3D printable gun files being available online, no matter how useless said gun might have been.
State Department Demands Takedown Of 3D-Printable Gun Files For Possible Export Control Violations

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Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Thu May 09, 2013 8:06 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Well apparently someone in the State Department Office of Defense Trade Controls Compliance wasn't too happy with a 3D printable gun files being available online, no matter how useless said gun might have been.


That gun ain't useless...it will serve as a great excuse for liberals to accept that the idea of Uncle Sam snooping around in emails and file exchanges is a good thing.

(Conservatives have been ok with it since 9/12/2001)


(PS to Henry...saw this recent article where a man was charged and convicted of "possessing a firearm as an unlawful marijuana user" and thought of our earlier convo. You ready to admit you were wrong yet or you gonna still insist that only mentally ill people beleive there is a law against marijuana smokers possessing a firearm?)

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Detritus » Thu May 09, 2013 8:27 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I'll bet I've gone through far more background checks than you have. Military, security clearances, dozens of firearm purchases, concealed carry permits from four states plus renewals. Sooo.. you'll have to reconsider at least one of your premises. If you really think I'm crazy, you'll have to abandon your belief that background checks work. Now that little bit of ironclad logic I find hilarious.

What makes you think I believe background checks work? Especially given the evidence you just provided.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 09, 2013 10:34 pm

Detritus wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I'll bet I've gone through far more background checks than you have. Military, security clearances, dozens of firearm purchases, concealed carry permits from four states plus renewals. Sooo.. you'll have to reconsider at least one of your premises. If you really think I'm crazy, you'll have to abandon your belief that background checks work. Now that little bit of ironclad logic I find hilarious.

What makes you think I believe background checks work? Especially given the evidence you just provided.


Good. We'll look forward to seeing your opposition to attempts to expand background checks. It ought to be fun. Welcome to the dark side.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Fri May 10, 2013 8:32 am

I understand the "plastic guns? haw haw, let me know when something pertinent comes along" argument. It's the same sort of thing people said about horseless carriages, home computers, laptops vs desktops, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know why we watch things like that come out, get laughed at, get debugged, then take off and end up so entrenched in our lives that we can't imagine it without them, and then laugh at the next one that comes along.

All that needs to be done is tweak the printing material a little bit and/or add some easily obtainable gun parts that aren't on any watch lists, add some printers that will soon be on sale at Office Max, and you've got cheap, fast, pocket guns. If you guys do any research you'll find those guns don't blow up like you think they do and the number of shots before failure has been climbing faster than the computing power of a standard microchip.

The only thing they can't print yet is ammo. If we started treating ammo and reloading supplies the same way we did meth lab supplies, we might have an effect.

But it's moot and it takes us away from the argument over background checks.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Fri May 10, 2013 8:45 am

penquin wrote:(PS to Henry...saw this recent article where a man was charged and convicted of "possessing a firearm as an unlawful marijuana user" and thought of our earlier convo. You ready to admit you were wrong yet or you gonna still insist that only mentally ill people beleive there is a law against marijuana smokers possessing a firearm?)


Did Henry say "charged with" or "arrested for"? The arrest was for the intent to sell a pocket full of crack; the gun charge was a tack-on.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri May 10, 2013 9:37 am

rabble wrote:I understand the "plastic guns? haw haw, let me know when something pertinent comes along" argument. It's the same sort of thing people said about horseless carriages, home computers, laptops vs desktops, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know why we watch things like that come out, get laughed at, get debugged, then take off and end up so entrenched in our lives that we can't imagine it without them, and then laugh at the next one that comes along.

All that needs to be done is tweak the printing material a little bit and/or add some easily obtainable gun parts that aren't on any watch lists, add some printers that will soon be on sale at Office Max, and you've got cheap, fast, pocket guns. If you guys do any research you'll find those guns don't blow up like you think they do and the number of shots before failure has been climbing faster than the computing power of a standard microchip.

The only thing they can't print yet is ammo. If we started treating ammo and reloading supplies the same way we did meth lab supplies, we might have an effect.

But it's moot and it takes us away from the argument over background checks.


The concept of plastic guns is definitly not a joke, and now is absolutly the time to start thinking about regulation. However the current generation of 3D printable firearms is not the one that should be inducing panic. They may not blow up as much as the previous generation, but they still do blow up on occasion. That's going to make it a non-starter as a weapon for most people wanting a gun. Those who might not care are still going to go for cheap and easy conventional gun rather than a single shot plastic gun that they have to have printed and assembled.

Add to that the fact that the average person isn't going to just go out, buy a 3D printer (cheapest ones right now that I found are around $500, and probably not the tool you want to use to print a 3D gun), take it home and have it hooked up and ready to print out something as complex as a firearm without a significant amount of time invested learning the process and configuring it.

Now they can also rent time on a 3D printer, but they are still either going to need to know how to set it up, or need to have someone else (who is going to have a good idea what they are printing) set it up for them. It wouldn't surprise me to see some or most of the contract 3D printing services refuse to print guns or gun parts. Too many legal questions.

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Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Fri May 10, 2013 9:45 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Now they can also rent time on a 3D printer, but they are still either going to need to know how to set it up, or need to have someone else (who is going to have a good idea what they are printing) set it up for them. It wouldn't surprise me to see some or most of the contract 3D printing services refuse to print guns or gun parts. Too many legal questions.

3d printers are going to be for sale at office max before the end of the year. By next year they're going to cost about as much as a good assault rifle.

I think you would be surprised at how many wannabe gun owners know somebody who can read a printer manual.


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