Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

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jman111
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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby jman111 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:33 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I said it is to do something outside of the law without lawful authority. I did not say it was to do any ol' thing outside of the law....

jman111, with surprisingly accurate foresight, wrote:Dman appears to prefer to hold others to absolutes and strict definitions, despite his apparent aversion to holding himself to similar standards.
Last edited by jman111 on Thu May 03, 2012 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Francis Di Domizio
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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu May 03, 2012 3:34 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
jman111 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Wrong, as usual. Vigilantism means to do something outside of the law or without lawful authority.

So, is exceeding posted speed limits considered vigilantism?


Nice try grasshopper. I said it is to do something outside of the law without lawful authority. I did not say it was to do any ol' thing outside of the law....


Does that mean I can't wear my Batman mask on my drive to work?

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 03, 2012 3:37 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Does that mean I can't wear my Batman mask on my drive to work?


Hey, why stop now?

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 03, 2012 3:38 pm

jman111 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I said it is to do something outside of the law without lawful authority. I did not say it was to do any ol' thing outside of the law....

jman111, with surprisingly accurate foresight, wrote:Dman appears to prefer to hold others to absolutes and strict definitions, despite his apparent aversion to holding himself to similar standards.


I at least have standards. What are yours?

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby jman111 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:43 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I at least have standards.

Yep. At least two sets, it appears.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 03, 2012 3:52 pm

jman111 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I at least have standards.

Yep. At least two sets, it appears.


Jman... what was it your doctor told you that you had? Retrograde amnesia? Never mind, I'm sure you don't remember.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby jman111 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:59 pm

Cute.

Dangerousman wrote:You got nothing so you try to make the issue about the person you oppose. That's weaker than blanks. Pathetic.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Thu May 03, 2012 4:29 pm

jman111 wrote:Cute.

Dangerousman wrote:You got nothing so you try to make the issue about the person you oppose. That's weaker than blanks. Pathetic.


Not only was it cute, but true.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Detritus » Thu May 03, 2012 5:20 pm

Dangerousman wrote:If you think "armed citizen defending with guns" is begging the question then you better explain how that is so. What part is questionable? They aren't citizens? They aren't armed with guns? They didn't defend? Do you even understand what "begging the question" is?
....
If someone claimed there are alligators in Wisconsin and another person claimed there are no alligators, is it begging the question to start giving examples of alligator sightings?

Oddly enough, yes, I do know what "begging the question" means, and my translation of your subject line demonstrates how your subject line constitutes "begging the question." Calling the people who killed other people "armed citizens defending" both asserts and assumes that they were consciously exercising a right--an assertion that is precisely what is under dispute. It is actually more neutral to word it the way I translated it (well, the gun lust part I threw in for free--you're welcome).

Also, "defend" really needs an object. It's not an intransitive verb, typically. Your choice to avoid specifying an object is probably a rhetorical strategy also meant to elevate the killers' actions to the level of a morally justifiably exercise of their rights, when that characterization is, again, exactly what is under dispute.

Also, alligators? Really? You metaphorically equate a question of interpretation with one of existence? That's also a logical fallacy, but of a different category.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby snoqueen » Thu May 03, 2012 5:52 pm

The "defending" without a direct object thing is another example of the verbally disingenuous writing I decried earlier in this topic.

I believe the purpose of this stuff is to toss out buzzwords or codewords that give the intended audience a little, well, buzz of theatricality, perhaps invoking an imagined golden age when men were men (and women were women) and the noble individualist took care of business without interference or, indeed, any reference at all to other people or society.

Defending the castle is part of this mythology. Same with references to various rights, which in this context amount to whatever the individual feels like doing and happens to coincide with the word right as distinguished from wrong, with the person defending the rights being, naturally, right. And unquestionably right, as in not subject to questioning whether legal or moral.

The latest version is a bumper sticker that says "think twice -- we don't call 911."

All put together, what it amounts to is basically anarchism. We just see the tip of the iceberg around here. I think that is why, ultimately, the "armed citizens defending with guns" thing is malignant and to present it as noble and desirable -- indeed, to fail to condemn it -- is seriously, deliberately, and profoundly antisocial.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Meade » Thu May 03, 2012 6:26 pm

How about "women armed with guns defending themselves against rape and assault"? Would that be "anarchism", "malignant",and "profoundly antisocial"?

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Fri May 04, 2012 12:50 am

Detritus wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:If you think "armed citizen defending with guns" is begging the question then you better explain how that is so. What part is questionable? They aren't citizens? They aren't armed with guns? They didn't defend? Do you even understand what "begging the question" is?
....
If someone claimed there are alligators in Wisconsin and another person claimed there are no alligators, is it begging the question to start giving examples of alligator sightings?

Oddly enough, yes, I do know what "begging the question" means, and my translation of your subject line demonstrates how your subject line constitutes "begging the question." Calling the people who killed other people "armed citizens defending" both asserts and assumes that they were consciously exercising a right--an assertion that is precisely what is under dispute. It is actually more neutral to word it the way I translated it (well, the gun lust part I threw in for free--you're welcome).

Also, "defend" really needs an object. It's not an intransitive verb, typically. Your choice to avoid specifying an object is probably a rhetorical strategy also meant to elevate the killers' actions to the level of a morally justifiably exercise of their rights, when that characterization is, again, exactly what is under dispute.

Also, alligators? Really? You metaphorically equate a question of interpretation with one of existence? That's also a logical fallacy, but of a different category.


No, it is a question of existence. Remember the original premise and intent of this thread? It was to challenge the assertion made by some people that average people very rarely use guns for their protection. Do such cases exist? I'm showing they do. And not only do they exist, but fairly often apparently, as I have attempted to limit my examples to those that have happened within the past few weeks so it can't be claimed I'm just digging up a few examples spread over a great period of time. Nobody has lifted a finger to challenge my original premise if you've noticed. So tell me, if somebody denied something exists, you don't agree that a proper way to dispute that would be to point to real examples of the thing in question? I mean there are at least two valid ways to prove something's existence: 1) By reason (i.e., existence is a logically necessary, e.g. "I think, therefore I am." and 2) Empirically, i.e, "There's one over there!" Any particular disagreement here?

"Also, "defend" really needs an object. It's not an intransitive verb, typically. Your choice to avoid specifying an object is probably a rhetorical strategy also meant to elevate the killers' actions to the level of a morally justifiably exercise of their rights, when that characterization is, again, exactly what is under dispute."

Wow, that's quite an elaborate little conspiracy theory you cooked up. I'm sure there's something nefarious under every stone you look underneath. At least you imagine that there is... But perhaps the simple explanation that there's no object named is because the object can vary from case to case. Do you expect me to name the object in yet-to-be found examples? I'm flattered that you think I have psychic powers, but I think it's more practical to leave the object open and let the object be evident in each individual case. Are you having difficulty in identifying the object in any particular case? It's usually easier to find than Waldo.

And you're absolutely right, it makes no sense whatsoever to talk about defending without naming an object. It makes no sense whatsoever to talk about the Green Bay Packers defense in general, is that what you're saying? I have to say, defense against the rush, the pass, punt returns, kickoffs, field goal attempts, 1-point conversions, 2-point conversions, hell--- let's break it down even further.... rushes up the middles, reverses, screen passes......
Oh, I'm rhetorically trying to morally justify the Packers here, clearly.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Fri May 04, 2012 1:37 am

snoqueen wrote:All put together, what it amounts to is basically anarchism. We just see the tip of the iceberg around here. I think that is why, ultimately, the "armed citizens defending with guns" thing is malignant and to present it as noble and desirable -- indeed, to fail to condemn it -- is seriously, deliberately, and profoundly antisocial.


Wow, Sno, you're a big conspiracy nut too, eh? And Anarchism? Well you make it all sound so much more romantic and nicer than it actually is...

No condemnation of criminals? Jeez... I consider violent crime to be somewhat antisocial... profoundly even. I guess you don't. Maybe you consider criminals noble? And desirable? Don't worry, there's no shortage of them.

Okay let's imagine this scenario, Sno--- guy's breaking down your door... big guy, 6'6" 280lbs... he's got, oh let's say a Bowie knife with a 12-inch blade in his hand. Brags that he's going to rape the crap out of you and then slit your throat and take a shit down your neck. Then he's says when he's done with you he's going to do the same to your kids.... Cops are on another call and maybe 10 or 15 minutes away at best...

You see the screws holding the door hinge are about to give....

You don't have a gun (because, thank goodness, 40 years ago you realized if you had one you might have been unable to resist shooting your ex)...

Your nearest neighbor is sitting in his living room, minding his own business reading Guns and Ammo, when he hears the blood curdling screams next door...

Tell us what is malignant, ignoble and undesirable. Tell us what is benign, noble and desirable, Ms Gandhi.

Your neighbor ought to:

a) Take his shotgun and confront the guy with the knife
b) Pick up his own 12-inch bladed knife so it will be a "fair fight"
c) Eschew any form of weapon and take on the knife guy bare-fisted like a real man would
d) Take his shotgun and yell at you to keep the fucking noise down when he's trying to read his damn magazine!
e) Put in his shooting earplugs and turn to page 61 to read about that new Smith & Wesson 9mm
f) Go to your house and say to the guy with the knife "Hey, can't we all just get along?"
g) Something else.... you tell us.

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Fri May 04, 2012 1:58 am

"Police say a man tried to rob a store in the 3600 block of Parkdale Drive around 9pm Wednesday. The owner of the business pulled a gun and shot the would-be robber, who was able to run away."

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/newsroom/to ... html?wap=0

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Re: Armed Citizens Defending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Fri May 04, 2012 2:05 am

"Alleged robber found fatally shot inside jewelry store on Vallejo's Broadway Street"

http://www.timesheraldonline.com/ci_205 ... rss_viewed


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