The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.
Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:16 pm

jman111 wrote:
Ninja wrote:It's just making a relatively mundane situation out to be a lot more dramatic and interesting than it actually is, which is how the media works these days.

I agree. I once read that a simple road reconfiguration would, most assuredly, lead to the demise of the local businesses. It was very dramatic.


Well I'm not a professional journalist, so I have no ethical obligation to refrain from being sensationalistic.

rabble
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 7533
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:19 pm

Ninja wrote:
jman111 wrote:
Ninja wrote:It's just making a relatively mundane situation out to be a lot more dramatic and interesting than it actually is, which is how the media works these days.

I agree. I once read that a simple road reconfiguration would, most assuredly, lead to the demise of the local businesses. It was very dramatic.


Well I'm not a professional journalist, so I have no ethical obligation to refrain from being sensationalistic.

Jeez. You're a fuckin monster.

Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:26 pm

rabble wrote:
Ninja wrote:Well I'm not a professional journalist, so I have no ethical obligation to refrain from being sensationalistic.

Jeez. You're a fuckin monster.


Touche.

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 21223
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:35 pm

The defense hammered on the four minutes (since he was stalked) that TM could have ran away. I thought one didn't have to do that in Florida; he could stand his ground instead.

Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:57 pm

Huckleby wrote:"mens rea" is not used interchangable with intent, intent is one of several possible states of mens rea.


If I'd have been reading a little more closely this afternoon I would have noticed that this is where we went off the rails.

You're confusing "intent" with "intentional." Intent, in the mens rea sense, can be intentional, or it can be purposeful, willful, reckless or negligent (or it can employ archaic language like "with malice aforethought" that's equivelent to one or more of those five MPC intents).

And it is confusing. Intent is a misnomer. Negligence can never be intentional, by definition, but we still call criminal negligence an intent for mens rea purposes. That's because it's a term of art. You can't just use intuition to figure it out because it doesn't have its normal dictionary meaning in this context. And that's why you can't just hop on an internet site and educate yourself about the law with a cursory read of a few articles (and I mean that to be sympathetic, not elistist or smugly exclusionary). A lot of things in the law are like that.

We seem to have had a similar term of art problem with manslaughter. It's a "lesser included crime," but not a "lesser degree of crime." Those would appear to mean the same thing, but they don't. So you were correct that manslaghter is not a degree of murder (though I think there are a fair number of jurisdictions that have made manslaughter 4th degree murder for the sake of uniformity), but it is a lesser included crime of murder.

That's because proving it requires the exact same elements as proving murder, minus the intent component (which, again, is mens rea intent, so it may be inentional, reckless or maybe even negiigent under certain situations involving a heightened duty). It breaks down like this:

1st degree murder - intentionally taking the life of another by a deliberate act PLUS evidence of premeditation and deliberation.

2nd degree murder (popularly known as homicide) - intentionally taking the life of another by a deliberate act WITHOUT the requirement of premeditation and deliberation, OR behaving recklessly in a way that causes a death.

Voluntary manslaughter - a deliberate action that leads to an unintentional death.

Involuntary manslaughter - an accidental action that leads to an unintentional death.

Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 8363
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:01 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The defense hammered on the four minutes (since he was stalked) that TM could have ran away. I thought one didn't have to do that in Florida; he could stand his ground instead.


What could be more suspicious than a running black teen? That might draw fire from one of the gated community guard towers.

Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 8363
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:09 pm

Ninja wrote: 2nd degree murder (popularly known as homicide) - intentionally taking the life of another by a deliberate act WITHOUT the requirement of premeditation and deliberation, OR behaving recklessly in a way that causes a death.

Voluntary manslaughter - a deliberate action that leads to an unintentional death.

I'm not criticizing your explanation, but I will go to my grave not understanding the difference between 2nd degree murder (reckless, without intent) and voluntary manslaughter. None of the talks on TV has made sense to me.

I find the ability to convict on a lesser charge unfair as hell. I accept the Supreme Court ruling for capital cases. It seems to be wrong to the defendant in my mind. I think a lot of Zimmerman fans are going to pissed if the Z-man goes down on manslaughter. (Not that I would lose any sleep over their angst.)

Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:44 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Ninja wrote: 2nd degree murder (popularly known as homicide) - intentionally taking the life of another by a deliberate act WITHOUT the requirement of premeditation and deliberation, OR behaving recklessly in a way that causes a death.

Voluntary manslaughter - a deliberate action that leads to an unintentional death.

I'm not criticizing your explanation, but I will go to my grave not understanding the difference between 2nd degree murder (reckless, without intent) and voluntary manslaughter. None of the talks on TV has made sense to me.

I find the ability to convict on a lesser charge unfair as hell. I accept the Supreme Court ruling for capital cases. It seems to be wrong to the defendant in my mind. I think a lot of Zimmerman fans are going to pissed if the Z-man goes down on manslaughter. (Not that I would lose any sleep over their angst.)


I immediately thought about editing that to clarify and came back to check it again for that reason.

Homicide generally requires extremely reckless behavior, like pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger, even if it can't be said for a fact that the shooter wanted the victim to die. We don't want to give a defendant in that situation the ability to say "Sure I shot him, but I didn't intend for that to kill him." Some behavior is so reckless that it basically ensures that death will occur, and that's murder.

Compare that to a few buddies hanging out on the ledge of a high rise when one of them decides to jokingly shove another towards the edge, but the guy actually freaks out, falls and dies. Even joking around like that is reckless, but it's not so reckless as to virtually ensure a death will result, so that's more of a manslaughter scenario.

And compare that even further to those same guys on the roof when one of them decides to show off and do a backflip, ends up totally fucking it up and running into another guy who falls off the roof. That would be an involuntary manslaughter scenario, because the back flipper didn't even intend to make contact with the guy who fell, but it happened, and it was reckless to be doing backflips in that situation if you're not sure you can land them.

GordonFreeman
Senior Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:48 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby GordonFreeman » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:10 pm

Blah blah, manmurder, blah, unintentional poopy poop.

Wanna-be cop douche tard stalked, cornered and killed an innocent kid. Fact.

Next.

Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 8363
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:47 am

Ninja wrote: Some behavior is so reckless that it basically ensures that death will occur, and that's murder.

I see, degree of recklessness can differentiate. On the telly, they talked about state of mind. If there is malice and hatred, 2nd degree is more indicated than manslaughter. That seems very fuzzy and arbitrary, but I guess that is the nature of this beast.

Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 8363
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:48 am

GordonFreeman wrote:Blah blah, manmurder, blah, unintentional poopy poop.

Wanna-be cop douche tard stalked, cornered and killed an innocent kid. Fact.


They should have let you deliver the closing arguments, Zimmerman would be cooked.

Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:33 am

Huckleby wrote:I see, degree of recklessness can differentiate.


Ehhhhh, kind of. It's technically a quesiton of culpability, which is kind of sub-element (as distinguished from a named or enumerated element) of almost all crimes. It works out to basically be the degree of badness of the behavior in question.

And culpability would be the reason a state like Florida would cite for retaining its colorful "malice aforethought" language instead of adopting the more standard MPC language. But that's really not necessary, because malice is always going to be part of a murder prosecution, and it's almost certain to be part of a voluntary manslaughter case when appropriate.

I don't think it's a great sign for the prosecution that the jury didn't come back with an immediate guilty verdict. I'm lacing up my riot boots.

HawkHead
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1189
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:51 am

I'm guessing they are already past murder 2 and working on the manslaughter charge.

Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3421
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:43 pm

And apparently as confused about manslaughter as Huckleby

Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 8363
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:57 pm

I feel for what that jury is going through. But I love what the judge said back to the jury when they asked for clarification of manslaughter instructions, "The court cannot engage in general discussions....but may be able to answer a specific question, if you have a specific question, please submit it."

Totally reasonable response.

Speculation is that jury are also past justifiable homicide - a.k.a. self-defense.

I heard another clarification (hopefully) about voluntary manslaughter. The person intentionally commits the act, but does not intend for the act to result in death.

Really, I think the only way to understand all the nuance of manslaughter etc. is to be a practicing attorney and work through many real cases.

I'm convinced of two things:
1) Zimmerman deserves to do jail time.
2) As a matter of justice, process, Zimmerman is getting screwed by this lesser charge baloney. Just ain't right.


Return to “Headlines”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests