The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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HawkHead
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:51 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Bringing him in cuffed would not have been an unreasonable expectations considering he had admittedly shot and killed someone.

Even if Stand Your Ground had been applicable, I assume some investigation is required to confirm the shooters story. Until then I would assume you would treat the person like any other suspect in a shooting.


We have a winner!!!!

If you can eliminate (Read As Killed and legally get away with it) the only person who would testify that you are not telling the truth justice is doomed.

Ninja
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:25 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Bringing him in cuffed would not have been an unreasonable expectations considering he had admittedly shot and killed someone.

Even if Stand Your Ground had been applicable, I assume some investigation is required to confirm the shooters story. Until then I would assume you would treat the person like any other suspect in a shooting.


I don't know. I sympathize with the cops in this situation because FL stats section 776.032 is just so profoundly bad.

"A person who uses force as permitted in [three different self-defense statutes] is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force..."

It doesn't require that a judge or jury find the application of self-defense to be permisible, so it puts cops in real bind. If somebody tells a cop that they followed Florida's self-defense law, and there are no witnesses or crime scene evidence, what can the cop do?

I think that's why they were so afraid to cuff him. Handcuffs represent a pretty unequivocal sign that a suspect is under arrest (as opposed to questioned, detained, various other non-arrest police contacts) and arrest could be found to be a "prosecution" under 776.032, creating a shitload of liability for the cops and PD.

It's just horrible, shitty law that should have never been adopted, much less spread to other states. Not the cops fault.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:36 pm

I do remember several stories back at the beginning that made it look like the cops had it all figured out right from the beginning. Thug attacks man and gets shot, no evidence needed.

One witness was quoted as saying she told them she heard the youth call for help and was told by the police "No, that was the other guy who was yelling for help."

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:22 pm

Ninja wrote:And I really, really hope the defense is dumb enough to put him on the stand today. I think if that happens we're going to see a flood of character evidence that paints a more complete picture of Mr. Zimmerman and his feelings on race, and that will not be helpful to the defense.


Zimmerman won't be testifying, which was a pretty obvious call. Too bad though, since everbody's obsessed with the race angle in this case, because I suspect that opening himself up to character evidence would have filled in some big blanks about his general demeanor towards black people and any racist tendencies in the past.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:49 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Zimmerman's nose was not broken.


yes, anybody who thinks Zimmerman had a broken nose has never seen somebody get a broken nose. It's a blood gusher.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby FJD » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:08 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Zimmerman's nose was not broken.


yes, anybody who thinks Zimmerman had a broken nose has never seen somebody get a broken nose. It's a blood gusher.



Also, if it had been broken you bet your ass the defense would have brought in medical records proving it.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:26 pm

There's an article splashed all over CNN's page touting an exclusive interview with former Sanford police chief Bill Lee (not sure what the linking rules are here, but it's hard to miss on the main page).

It's working pretty hard to leave open the possibility that he and his department are racists, but I think it's just as likely that they acted professionally and complied with the immunity law that I mentioned above.

Purported quotes from Lee reproduced in the article:

...the evidence provided no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman at the scene...


Arresting Zimmerman based on the evidence at hand would have been a violation of Zimmerman's Fourth Amendment rights...


I think that's absolutely true in light of the immunity provided by section 776.032.

Compare that to the status quo in the absence of 776.032, where the cops would almost certainly make an arrest, because the suspect did kill somebody, which is no small thing. It's not asking too much that a person who takes the life of another, regardless of circumstances, face a little inconvenience by getting locked up until arraignment and bail, thereby starting the prosecution process, which will provide an opportunity to argue self-defense. Correction: I guess that is asking too much in several states.

I think the article also nails down my general misgivings about this ending up in local hands and state court. The feds tend to operate more professionally (this personal belief is currently up for review in light of the recent ATF hijinx in Milwaukee and AZ, but I still cling to it) and more quietly than is possible in a local investigation or state trial.

Public opinion should never influence this kind of thing. The public really shouldn't have an opinion on this kind of thing in general, because, by and large, the public has no idea what it's talking about. We have no shortage of entertainment options in this country. I don't understand why everything has to end up part of the entertainment industry.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:57 pm

It's not asking too much that a person who takes the life of another, regardless of circumstances, face a little inconvenience by getting locked up until arraignment and bail, thereby starting the prosecution process, which will provide an opportunity to argue self-defense. Correction: I guess that is asking too much in several states.


And that's exactly what the pro gun reasoning is on how GZ was being treated by the cops who picked him up. He was considered to have done little or nothing wrong, or maybe I should say little or nothing of a questionable nature. Sure, the police don't write the laws, they enforce them. Yeah, I know.

I don't think anybody should be mistreated in custody, but yes -- you ought to face a little inconvenience if you shoot and kill somebody. You at least owe society an evidence-based explanation.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:47 am

snoqueen wrote: You at least owe society an evidence-based explanation.


That will happen when the prosecution rests and the defense is heard from in whatever trial snoqueen has been watching.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:12 am

I am not familar with Florida's rules in criminal trials, but many states allow the judge to tell the jury they can consider lesser charges. Does anyone know if the judge in this case can instruct the jury to also deliberate manslaughter as well as second degree homicide?

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby david cohen » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:34 am

Henry Vilas wrote:I am not familar with Florida's rules in criminal trials, but many states allow the judge to tell the jury they can consider lesser charges. Does anyone know if the judge in this case can instruct the jury to also deliberate manslaughter as well as second degree homicide?



Yes. The prosecution has to make a motion. I believe they did just that yesterday afternoon. They also included aggravated assault amongst the lesser charges.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:38 am

It seems like some think that the jury verdict is going to validate their point of view. That Trayvon Martin was a thug. Or that Zimmerman was a racist, or a guy rightfully defending his neighborhood.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:30 am

My point of view? Lynch mobs suck. Even the liberal ones.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:49 am

Rich Schultz wrote:That will happen when the prosecution rests and the defense is heard from in whatever trial snoqueen has been watching.


I don't know where you're going with this, but most people have been hearing the defense all week, or at least when they get home from work and can take the time to watch highlights.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:15 am

Rich Schultz wrote:My point of view? Lynch mobs suck. Even the liberal ones.


From my point of view? Killing the only other witness and claiming self-defense without having to take the stand sucks. Even the NRA backed ones.


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