The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:17 am

Dangerousman wrote:
wack wack wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Yes, reasonableness and imminence ARE an issue for Zimmerman. I think if your head is in the process of being slammed into concrete, that's "imminent" enough to satisfy any reasonable person.


Except Zimmerman's head was not being slammed into the concrete.


Right. The lacerations are undoubtedly some sort of stigmata. :roll:


Hmm, what should I believe, your purely agenda-driven opinion, or the assessment of an educated, experienced medical examiner?

Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:42 am

Rich Schultz wrote:What makes you so sure from your nonvantage point that the same youth, who was suspended from school for among other things possessing jewelry he claimed he was holding for a friend he could not identify and a large screwdriver, was not acting suspicious? Is it not at least in the realm of possibility that Trayvon Martin might indeed have been acting suspicious? Wouldn't that be the most likely reason Zimmerman notified the police?


Intuition. And that's all I need. The racism issue isn't in a court of law, it's in a court of public opnion, and in my opinion, it seems far more likely that the quality that made Mr. Martin appear suspicious was his skin color, not his behavior.

Everybody could look suspicious hunched over in the rain at night. Why was Martin singled out? I've heard every bizarre rationalization from his hoody imparting a criminal aura, to the lie that he was peeking in windows, to the idea that his typical teenager behavior indicates that he's a ruthless thug, to the bullshit about Zimmerman being justified because Martin shared a skin color with some people who had behaved badly in the neighborhood in the past.

Okham's razor. I think the most likely explanation is the simplest explanation. And if this idea of increased scrutiny and suspicion of young black men was some kind of anomoly, or novel phenomenon that had never occurred before, then I'd probably be a little less inclined to make that jump. But it's not. It's something that happens all the time, every day, all over the country. It's happening somewhere right now as I type this.

I think it happened in Florida that night too. I don't know it for a fact, and I don't have to know it for a fact because I'm not trying to prove it in court, but that certainly seems like the most likely explanation.

Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:49 am

And I really, really hope the defense is dumb enough to put him on the stand today. I think if that happens we're going to see a flood of character evidence that paints a more complete picture of Mr. Zimmerman and his feelings on race, and that will not be helpful to the defense.

Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 9434
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:54 am

Rich Schultz wrote: What makes you so sure from your nonvantage point that the same youth, who was suspended from school for among other things possessing jewelry he claimed he was holding for a friend he could not identify and a large screwdriver, was not acting suspicious?


OMG. Zimmerman had some sort of super-sleuth intuition that identified Trayvon Martin as trouble. And you offer some incident from Martin's past that proves you & Zimmerman correct.

There is no arguing with you vigilantes.

Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 9434
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:55 am

BTW, I think profiling is deeply embedded in human nature. We are all racists to some degree.

Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:06 am

Since everybody's racist I guess we can all break anybody's nose anytime we want.

fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 7982
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby fisticuffs » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:10 am

Rich Schultz wrote:Since everybody's racist I guess we can all break anybody's nose anytime we want.


What's the penalty for breaking someone's nose? Is it death?

wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3241
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:14 am

Huckleby wrote:BTW, I think profiling is deeply embedded in human nature. We are all racists to some degree.


Rich Schultz wrote:Since everybody's racist I guess we can all break anybody's nose anytime we want.


As we learned from the recent IRS "scandal," sometimes profiling is just a sorting mechanism.

Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:17 am

fisticuffs wrote:
Rich Schultz wrote:Since everybody's racist I guess we can all break anybody's nose anytime we want.


What's the penalty for breaking someone's nose? Is it death?


What do you think you are going to get, a jelly donut?

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 22640
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:26 am

Zimmerman's nose was not broken.

Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:02 am

""The Zimmerman trial says a lot about race in America — just not what the mainstream media want the story to be."
"Look at the residents of this 'gated community' who lived just in that one spot. It is more diverse than a Democrat photo-op. This neighborhood had young and old, Asians and blacks and whites and Hispanics all living next to each other in peace, but needing gates and a neighborhood watch to protect themselves from outsiders.""
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-zimmerman-trial-says-lot-about-race.html

Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 1643
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:07 am

Huckleby wrote:BTW, I think profiling is deeply embedded in human nature. We are all racists to some degree.


I'm not a big fan of that theory. It's like saying we're all so stupid and irrational that we're incapable of controlling for bias. That's just not true. We're entirely capable of not being bigots, but bigotry is easy, and for some people, especially in America, it's also deeply satisfying.

Laziness and selfishness are human nature. They manifest as small-minded thinking, but that's a symptom, not a cause.

Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:13 am

Ninja wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Sorry to rain on your conspiracy theory parade, Sno.


You have a tendency to focus on a tree because you don't like the looks of the forest as a whole. I don't think Mr. Zimmerman needed any assistance in making his wounds look gory, but I don't think there's any question that the cops were deferential to him, which was the overall point to that post.


Not even close to the overall point. Sno's point was clearly that she was pondering the possibility that the police conspired to help Zimmerman. In support of that suspicion she proposed two things:

1) We don't know that the police didn't put those wounds on Zimmerman's head, and;
2) In her opinion the video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station didn't meet her expectations of how they would handle a murder suspect.

The first proposition is refuted by the testimony of a credible witness and the photographic evidence. And the second proposition is so subjective as to be without real value. I don't know how much experience Sno has watching people being booked for murder, but the fact is that Zimmerman cooperated with the police and went willingly to the police that night and on subsequent days. It could well be that he wasn't treated-- whatever that might look like in Sno's eyes-- like a murder suspect because he wasn't necessarily a murder suspect. Based on his statement and the statement of other witnessed that night he may well have been a victim. Sno, maybe you can tell us if you would have felt better if the cops had been shown to be dragging a bound and gagged Zimmerman from the car by his ankles.

snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 13528
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:49 am

It could well be that he wasn't treated-- whatever that might look like in Sno's eyes-- like a murder suspect because he wasn't necessarily a murder suspect. Based on his statement and the statement of other witnessed that night he may well have been a victim.


A victim, that is, under the crazy Florida laws we've been discussing.

Sure, the cops enforce the laws as written, though we know plenty of times they are found to have done indefensible things in the course of securing a scene and investigating a crime. Don't pretend this never happens because then we'll get a solid page of links of examples showing it happens all the time.

Part of what people have been trying to tell you here is we do not see those laws as honorable or contributing to a better, safer, more reasonable America.

If GZ walks -- and he might, courtrooms and juries being what they are -- it's testimony to the notion something is gravely wrong.

You shouldn't be able to do what he did, kill a kid, and get off. I don't care if the kid took a swing at him first (we don't know). I do know if he'd stayed in his car instead of playing cop, the kid would still be alive. He set in motion the actions that caused that death because he was immersed in a fantasy that he was doing some noble thing out there with his gun, a fantasy fed by laws that make it defensible and even legal to solve problems with guns instead of common sense and humanity.

His actions were way out of proportion to any risks posed by TM talking on his phone, walking home to his family's house. This should not be excused when death is the result and when many points of exit existed on the way to that death. Even if GZ was directly provoked in some manner by this kid, as an armed adult he needed to be better trained and more mature in his decisions.

I thought you were the big advocate for safe, responsible use of guns. I can't see how you can defend this person and maintain that advocacy. GZ is the poster person for a gunman who did just about everything wrong. If he is exonerated it'll encourage more of this stuff, and that's unfortunate because more unnecessary deaths will result.

Fixing the law would be a step in the right direction, as would be rethinking the notion using a gun in this way solves problems in a satisfactory manner. We can do a lot better than this. As a gun trainer I'd think you would be out in front on this matter.

Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
Posts: 3537
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:04 pm

Bringing him in cuffed would not have been an unreasonable expectations considering he had admittedly shot and killed someone.

Even if Stand Your Ground had been applicable, I assume some investigation is required to confirm the shooters story. Until then I would assume you would treat the person like any other suspect in a shooting.


Return to “Headlines”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests