The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Dangerousman
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:13 pm

wack wack wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Yes, reasonableness and imminence ARE an issue for Zimmerman. I think if your head is in the process of being slammed into concrete, that's "imminent" enough to satisfy any reasonable person.


Except Zimmerman's head was not being slammed into the concrete.


Right. The lacerations are undoubtedly some sort of stigmata. :roll:

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:16 pm

HawkHead wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
Ninja wrote:Are you kidding me? We've got an adult in a car, at night, following a juvenile on foot who, as it turns out, was a visitor to the area and unfamiliar with his surroundings, but had every right to be there. The juvenile is aware that he's being followed, and then the adult gets out of the car and there's some kind of confrontation. That's a juvenile who has a reasonable fear that he's about to be subject to a forcible felony of some sort or another.

Especially when we find out, in absolute fact, that the adult was carrying a gun, and the juvenile got murdered with that gun. C'mon son.


Sorry, but you can't use the fact that Zimmerman had a gun as part of your theory that Martin had a reasonable fear unless you can show that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun. There's been absolutely no evidence that he knew about the gun until either the moment he got shot, or immediately beforehand at the soonest.



Dman, apparently you need to increase your reading comprehension. Ninja doesn't say that the gun makes TM have reasonable fear, he says being followed, and confronted by an adult inside a gated community does.

Ninja goes on to state that the presence of the gun and death of TM is a good indication that TM had a reason to fear for his life when GZ confronted him.


Again, how could the gun give him reason to fear for his life if he didn't know about it.? Again, why wasn't TM back in the safety of where he was staying sometime during the 5 minutes after "he ran"?

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:18 pm

HawkHead wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.



So now are you arguing, in high crime zones, that residents can carry guns and shoot anyone they want because there is reason to be afraid?

I am not sure how breaking-in and vandalism raises the bar to be able to shoot someone but having a stranger follow you in a car in the same neighborhood doesn't.


I never argued that, did I?

Zimmerman didn't shoot someone engaging in a break-in or vandalizing did he? He shot someone who was on top of him and beating him.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:26 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
I never argued that, did I?

Zimmerman didn't shoot someone engaging in a break-in or vandalizing did he? He shot someone who was on top of him and beating him.


He shot an unarmed teenager whom he was stalking for no valid reason.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:04 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
HawkHead wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
Sorry, but you can't use the fact that Zimmerman had a gun as part of your theory that Martin had a reasonable fear unless you can show that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun. There's been absolutely no evidence that he knew about the gun until either the moment he got shot, or immediately beforehand at the soonest.



Dman, apparently you need to increase your reading comprehension. Ninja doesn't say that the gun makes TM have reasonable fear, he says being followed, and confronted by an adult inside a gated community does.

Ninja goes on to state that the presence of the gun and death of TM is a good indication that TM had a reason to fear for his life when GZ confronted him.


Again, how could the gun give him reason to fear for his life if he didn't know about it.? Again, why wasn't TM back in the safety of where he was staying sometime during the 5 minutes after "he ran"?


Once again the gun had nothing to do with TM fearing for his life. Being followed and confronted did.

Getting shot and killed is pretty good evidence that any fear he may have perceived beforehand was justified.

It is amusing to me that someone who is so "sure" in his defense of GZ can find no way that TM may have felt threatened also.

As to your 5 minutes question, in high stress situation people can't remember their address. They also forget the 911 is dialed 9-1-1 on a telephone. Maybe TM was afraid and thought his best option was to hide and hope that GZ went away.

Actually that last idea makes a lot of sense in the story. TM hides and hopes that the person following him goes away. During this time GZ makes the call to the police to report someone in the neighbor hood. After the call he gets out of the car and looks to find the person he is following. TM gets cornered in a development he wasn't very familiar with and after getting confronted by GZ gets into a fight with GZ. GZ is getting his ass kicked after starting the confrontation and shoots TM.

What I believe is that GZ was the aggressor in the case. It was only when he realized the skin teenage punk was kicking his ass that he decided to shoot.

Personally, I don' think GZ should be charged with 2nd Degree Murder I think he should have been charged with manslaughter.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:08 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
I never argued that, did I?

Zimmerman didn't shoot someone engaging in a break-in or vandalizing did he? He shot someone who was on top of him and beating him.


Then why quote an article showing how dangerous the neighborhood had gotten? It seems to me that you are trying to infer through the posting of the article that GZ had a reason to carry a gun or feel threatened by a random teenager walking down the street.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:51 pm

Dangerousman wrote:What makes you say Trayvon was "unfamiliar with his surroundings?" Wiki article states, "Martin had visited his father's fiancée at Twin Lakes several times."

So, okay, you don't like the concept of "presumed innocence" even though it dates back to Roman Law, is contained in among other things English Common Law and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and is a cornerstone of the American justice system.

Sorry, but you can't use the fact that Zimmerman had a gun as part of your theory that Martin had a reasonable fear unless you can show that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun. There's been absolutely no evidence that he knew about the gun until either the moment he got shot, or immediately beforehand at the soonest.

Absolutely false that the Florida law only requires an "arguable hunch that something was going down" in order to shoot someone. You can't defend that statement in the slightest because it's simply not contained in the law. You might want to check how the term "reasonable belief" is defined in self-defense laws. I suggest before you argue how bad you think a law is that you familiarize yourself with it.

I see you have chosen to subscribe to the prosecution's absurd insinuation that a person is not justified in using deadly force unless they have already suffered life-threatening injuries. Well, there would be a self-defense law that absolutely no one would follow!

Yes, reasonableness and imminence ARE an issue for Zimmerman. I think if your head is in the process of being slammed into concrete, that's "imminent" enough to satisfy any reasonable person. Imminent means "about to happen" but if you want to re-define the word to mean "in progress?" Okay, in this case it WAS in progress.


You're really all over the place here so I'll just respond in kind.

Fine, he knew the area like the back of his hand because he visited three times. Happy? That's a very, very small part of the larger reasonableness inquiry. You can have it, and still lose.

You've completely butchered the concept of presumed innocence, so that's not even worth addressing.

I think it's funny though that you would argue that it was unreasonable for Mr. Martin to believe that the adult acousting him could be carrying a firearm, because the adult who acousted him was, in fact, carrying a fucking firearm. You don't seem to understand the difference between reasonable belief and actual knowledge, which is a recurring theme in your post.

What is reasonable belief if not an arguable hunch? Please, enlighten me with your legal knowledge. I know quite a bit about the law in general, and about self-defense law in particular, but I'm always willing to learn more. Are you sure that you're not thinking of the old standard required for an affirmative defense, like self-defense law used to require before we all went coward in the 90s? Because that was a pretty good standard, it worked quite well for hundreds and hundreds of years, and it seems to be the standard you want to apply to Mr. Martin (though, oddly, not to Mr. Zimmerman).

You also either don't understand or you're deliberately mischaracterizing the prosecution's position on the likelihood of death or great bodily harm. No, you don't have to be half-dead before you defend yourself, but you also can't shoot a teenager just because he popped you in the nose. Again, this is a product of your failure to understand what reasonableness means in the law.

I don't think this situation happened at all like Mr. Zimmerman describes. I continue to believe that Zimmerman delivered his own head wounds with his firearm after he shot Mr. Martin and realized his terrible mistake. That's why the wounds are so superficial, clean and discrete. That's why there's no DNA under Mr. Martin's fingernails. That's why Mr. Martin's hands and knuckles weren't scuffed up. That's why Mr. Zimmerman lied to the cops about his knowledge and understanding of self-defense law.

This guy knew exactly what he did wrong when he shot a kid for punching him. We'll see if he knew enough to get away with it.
Last edited by Ninja on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:02 pm

I'm not even sure the cops weren't complicit in crafting GZ's defense. They could easily have helped with the little head scratches, for instance. Linked somewhere upthread is the video of the cops bringing GZ to the police station. It's a remarkably respectful and calm little vignette where everybody's walking in together, not the picture you'd expect if the cops were hauling in someone they regarded as a murder suspect.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:22 pm

snoqueen wrote:I'm not even sure the cops weren't complicit in crafting GZ's defense. They could easily have helped with the little head scratches, for instance. Linked somewhere upthread is the video of the cops bringing GZ to the police station. It's a remarkably respectful and calm little vignette where everybody's walking in together, not the picture you'd expect if the cops were hauling in someone they regarded as a murder suspect.


That is an interesting point to make. I am not ready to go that far.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:43 pm

I'm not sure I'd make a big loud claim about it either, but nothing I've seen rules out the possibility. I'd rather think the police acted properly. If they did not perhaps it would explain some otherwise-unexplained evidence. I'm just putting it out there as a hypothesis, untested.

And, of course, we have not heard the defense yet.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:08 pm

snoqueen wrote:I'm not sure I'd make a big loud claim about it either, but nothing I've seen rules out the possibility. I'd rather think the police acted properly. If they did not perhaps it would explain some otherwise-unexplained evidence. I'm just putting it out there as a hypothesis, untested.

And, of course, we have not heard the defense yet.


When do you think we will hear the defense, snoqueen?

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby david cohen » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:48 pm

GZ claims that TM attacked him, so he gets to use self defense. There were no other witnesses. For all we know, GZ could have baited TM into the fight. GZ could have attempted to physically detain TM and TM fought back. We'll just never know. When there are no witnesses to the start of the altercation and one survivor and no forensic evidence to the contrary, what can you do? I think GZ walks in the criminal trial and gets nailed in a civil suit.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:32 pm

The defense is heard when the prosecution is done laying out its case. Isn't that how it usually works?

At one point, they said they thought the case might go to the jury by the end of this week. Not sure if they're still on that timeline or not.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Sandi » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:42 pm

snoqueen wrote:The defense is heard when the prosecution is done laying out its case. Isn't that how it usually works?

At one point, they said they thought the case might go to the jury by the end of this week. Not sure if they're still on that timeline or not.


Defense will probably rest tomorrow.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:45 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Zimmerman didn't shoot someone engaging in a break-in or vandalizing did he? He shot someone who was on top of him and beating him.

Perhaps. It was a fight Zimmerman precipitated, even if he didn't throw the first punch. Zimmerman acted with the courage of a guy packing heat.

If Zimmerman was taking a "beating" he would have looked a lot worse. BTW, when somebody really gets a "broken nose" there is a huge amount of blood spilled. Zimmerman had some very minor scrapes.

Trayvon Martin was tracked over a great distance by a creepy-ass cracker. I have no doubt that he felt threatened by Zimmerman.

I just don't get the compulsion to paint Zimmerman as a victim. His awful behavior led to a death.


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