The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Rich Schultz
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:49 pm

"Black People Benefit Disproportionately From Stand-Your-Ground

In addition, all the evidence suggests that Stand-Your-Ground is being used properly by law-abiding people defending themselves against criminal predation–and, further, that a vastly disproportionate number of those doing so are minorities living in high crime neighborhoods. In other words, black people are availing themselves of the protective benefits of Stand-Your-Ground with much greater frequency than their percentage of the population would suggest.

Image
Source: Federal Bureau of Investigation

This, of course, follows naturally from the fact that the high rate of violent crime in poor neighborhoods is directed primarily at the other residents of those neighborhoods, resulting in the horrifyingly high rate of black-on-black crime reflected in today’s FBI crime statistics."
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/radical-gun-control-zombies-exploit-grieving-black-community//#more

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Sandi » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:55 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:That is your response? Middle school at best. Ned would have at least used a gif.

And you are the one who ran away from other discussions, accusing others of not carrying on an adult conversation. Back up your opinions with facts, not silly pictures.


When you give me some facts to respond to, I will.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:30 pm

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/ra ... ity//#more

Rich, that's... rich.

I actually took the trouble to read it. I'd note its statistical table was linked (in more complete form) upthread, so we've seen it already. Your use of the black-on-black murder statistics it shows as an indicator of justifiable self-defense homicides in the black community is creative. I'm surprised the people in those communities aren't marching for more castle-doctrine laws instead of for revisiting or repealing them. You must believe they have a very poor understanding of their own self-interest.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:54 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
Huckleby wrote: But as others have pointed out, "stand your ground" generates a loose attitude towards gun use.

How you gonna prove that?



Henry Vilas wrote:Where stand your ground laws have been enacted "justifiable homicides" have increased by 200%, yet the rate of illegal homicides has basically remained the same.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Sandi » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:55 pm

snoqueen wrote:Your use of the black-on-black murder statistics it shows as an indicator of justifiable self-defense homicides in the black community is creative.


It isn't creative at all. WTF difference does it make what race the offender is to "stand your ground" defense?

If stand your ground saves the life of the victim and takes the life of the offender, ( no matter the race of the offender ). Well done.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:07 pm

"Black Floridians have made about a third of the state’s total “Stand Your Ground” claims in homicide cases, a rate nearly double the black percentage of Florida’s population. The majority of those claims have been successful, a success rate that exceeds that for Florida whites."

"One hundred thirty three people in the state of Florida have used a “Stand Your Ground” defense. Of these claims, 73 were considered “justified” (55 percent), while 39 resulted in criminal convictions and 21 cases are still pending."

“Besides the shooter’s word and a grainy surveillance video, jurors had little to go on when deciding if Tony Hayward was defending his life when he shot and killed Jyron Miles, 22. Hayward, then 19, and his father were delivering newspapers when Miles appeared at about 3 a.m., according to newspaper reports. They said Miles aggressively demanded ‘is you straight?’ a phrase sometimes used to see if someone has drugs,” according to the Tampa Bay Times database. “The father and son said Miles then reached for what they thought was a gun, so the teen fired. The video did not show whether Miles had a gun, but police did not find one when they arrived…At his second trial in early 2011, Hayward was acquitted. His public defender argued that Hayward was standing his ground during the confrontation.”"
http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/blacks-benefit-from-florida-stand-your-ground-law-at-disproportionate-rate/2/

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:22 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:
Huckleby wrote: But as others have pointed out, "stand your ground" generates a loose attitude towards gun use.

How you gonna prove that?



Henry Vilas wrote:Where stand your ground laws have been enacted "justifiable homicides" have increased by 200%, yet the rate of illegal homicides has basically remained the same.

You know, it's really not like you to throw out lazy arguments like that. Firstly, what's the ratio of justifiable homicides to illegal homicides? FBI lists there being 266 justifiable homicides in the whole country in 2009 and 278 in 2010. Out of 313.9 million people, I think that's pretty good. If it doubled lol that would be what five hundred fifty six justifiable homicides out of a country of 300 mil? Not too shabby. Versus (reputably) about fifteen thousand illegal homicides in 2010.

So, the legally justifiable homicides equal about 1.8% of ALL the homicides, but those are the ones we should be really worried about. Which (like your argument) is besides the point because none of the above contributes anything of substance to your suggestion that stand your grown laws generate a "loose attidude" towards guns.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby DCB » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:22 pm

Sandi wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:That is your response? Middle school at best. Ned would have at least used a gif.

And you are the one who ran away from other discussions, accusing others of not carrying on an adult conversation. Back up your opinions with facts, not silly pictures.


When you give me some facts to respond to, I will.

You mean, aside from the Politifact article that Henry cited, which analyzed numbers from the Florida dept. of Law Enforcement? or the TAMU study that Sno quoted?

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:06 pm

Bludgeon wrote: So, the legally justifiable homicides equal about 1.8% of ALL the homicides, but those are the ones we should be really worried about.


Holy smokes. Our topic is the effect of "stand your ground" laws. The legally justifiable homicides are relevant not because they represent a large percentage of homicides, but rather because it's a reasonable hypothesis that they are correlated with SYG.

You asked for proof that SYG laws lead to less inhibition in the use of guns. I can think of no better proof than the fact that SYG laws lead to higher justifiable homicide rates.

But really, common sense, life experience, and an understanding of human nature are the real guides. If your judgement is that SYG laws won't cause people to be more trigger happy, so be it.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:18 am

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: So, the legally justifiable homicides equal about 1.8% of ALL the homicides, but those are the ones we should be really worried about.


Holy smokes. Our topic is the effect of "stand your ground" laws. The legally justifiable homicides are relevant not because they represent a large percentage of homicides, but rather because it's a reasonable hypothesis that they are correlated with SYG.

You asked for proof that SYG laws lead to less inhibition in the use of guns. I can think of no better proof than the fact that SYG laws lead to higher justifiable homicide rates.

But really, common sense, life experience, and an understanding of human nature are the real guides. If your judgement is that SYG laws won't cause people to be more trigger happy, so be it.

Admit it, you're out on a limb, I don't hold it against you. The trial is over, we're on to topics inside of topics, comparing both kinds of homicide is apples to apples.

SYG laws - I was going to tell Snow, what you're suggesting is these cute modern studies' data - you're telling me SYG doesn't decrease crime (not really the issue if your the guy being assaulted) and leads to higher rates of justifiable homicide (Again, not the issue for the person being attacked).

Think, now. If justifiable homicides equal 1.8% of ALL homicides, then even if they DOUBLE, 96.4% of the regular crime is going to continue on as normal. If you did keep multiplying the rate of justifiable homicides, it would eventually have a dramatic affect on the illegal crime rate. Not that I would call this ideal. But if you're the victim and you're assaulted, all that matters in my opinion is that you kill the bad guy instead of the other way around.

So what happens if you reppeal the SYG laws? Innocent people stop being innocent the minute its their attacker who's killed (instead of them). I just don't think that's right.

You take the 278 people who managed to save their own lives in 2010, and kill them, basically. Do you not see that your position makes it look like you're on the side of the attacker?

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:15 am

Removing SYG laws would not remove the ability of people to use firearms in self defense.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:18 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
Huckleby wrote:
Sandi wrote:Stand your ground was not involved in this case in any way.

True if viewed narrowly. But as others have pointed out, "stand your ground" generates a loose attitude towards gun use.

The judge instructed the jury on Florida's stand your ground law when she gave final jury instructions prior to their deliberations.


Furthermore, Juror B37 acknowledged that she and other jurors considered stand your ground during deliberations.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:00 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html
Florida was the first to adopt a stand-your-ground statute, in 2005; about half the states have followed. Instead of requiring potential victims of crime to retreat if they have a safe escape route, these laws allow people to use deadly force without attempting to avoid a potentially lethal confrontation. They also often contain other generous protections for killers claiming self-defense.

George Zimmerman, who shot Trayvon Martin, didn’t invoke Florida’s stand-your-ground statute in an attempt to avoid trial. But the law could have contributed to the police decision not to charge him for more than a month after he killed Mr. Martin. At trial, the judge informed the Zimmerman jury explicitly of the stand-your-ground law, and the statute came up in closing arguments.

There is a reason that the duty to retreat is a concept respected by centuries of legal application. Setting a laxer standard encourages tragic mistakes, poor judgment and perhaps even vigilantism. A recent study from two Texas A&M University researchers found that “lowering the expected cost of lethal force causes there to be more of it.” Stand-your-ground states saw more homicides than their peers — about 600 more a year over the period they studied. One possible explanation is that stand-your-ground laws encourage people to escalate conflicts rather than withdraw.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:50 am

That Texas study is the same one I linked to, but I don't mind. It needs as much play as it can get. Those findings are both dramatic and methodologically thorough. I'm glad WaPo picked it up.

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:44 am

George Zimmerman, who has been in hiding since he was acquitted of murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, emerged to help rescue someone who was trapped in an overturned truck, police said today.

Sanford Police Department Capt. Jim McAuliffe told ABC News that Zimmerman "pulled an individual from a truck that had rolled over" at the intersection of a Florida highway last week. Florida Highway Patrol is now handling the case, McAuliffe said.

The crash occurred at the intersection of I-4 and route 417, police said.


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