The Libya Thing...

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Bludgeon
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The Libya Thing...

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:29 pm

London Daily Mail wrote:Days after Gaddafi was buried, the flag of Al Qaeda is flying in Libya and sharia law has been imposed... On past form, Abdel Hakim Belhaj will not be discomfited by these developments: he was the driving force behind the recent announcement that the country will introduce Sharia law, a brutal form of justice that includes floggings and executions for those accused of ‘crimes’ such as adultery, homosexuality and theft. As well as allowing Libyan men to take multiple wives — and giving males custody of children, while women have no right to divorce — he wants brutal punishments for anyone who criticises Islam or refuses to pray.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Libya.html

Washington Examiner wrote:"We grabbed [Gadhafi]," the young man said. "I hit him in the face. Some fighters wanted to take him away and that's when I shot him, twice, in the face and in the chest." Later, it was revealed that more was done to Gadhafi than this young rebel merely shooting him in the face and chest. So let's recap:

    1. Obama commits American forces -- as part of NATO -- to supporting a rebel faction in Libya whose goal is to overthrow Gadhafi. Obama does this while having absolutely no clue about what kind of people make up this rebel faction.

    2. The rebel forces prevail, primarily through NATO airstrikes. It was a NATO airstrike that took out a Gadhafi convoy fleeing Sirte that allowed rebel forces to capture the deposed Libyan leader.

    3. Gadhafi ends up in the hands of what can only be considered a mob. He is beaten, tortured, possibly sodomized, and fatally shot in what has been oxymoronically described as "mob justice." His body is then put on public display in a meat store.

    4. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton flies into Libya and announces, with the smug arrogance we might expect from an official from Obama's administration, "We came, we saw, he [Gadhafi] died."

    5. Leaders of Libya's National Transition Council announce that Shariah law will prevail in Libya.

    6. Obama is mum on No. 5.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/c ... ibya-shari

Is it just me or is it growing ever more clear that Obama plans to show up at the debates brandishing the heads of so many dead Muslims on a stick?

Huckleby
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Huckleby » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:54 pm

Every Arab country, including Mubarak's Egypt, mentions "Shariah Law" in its constituition. What matters is whether fundamentalism is applied. The phrase Shariah Law can mean nothing or everything.

Clinton did not say what you alledge publicly, let alone in Libya. She was waiting in her office to be interviewed, didn't know camera was on. She was reacting to unconfirmed news on her blackberry that kadaffy was dead. Entirely appropriate response.

I'll get to rest of your 1/4 baked analysis later, but first a hamburger.

Bludgeon
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:13 am

How was the hamburger?

Most of that is article quotes, not me in particular, however I quote it and put it up for question.

I've always hoped to gain some clarity on the Democratic position on the very conservative nature of traditional Islamic culture. To me the two perspectives should not mix by any means - the Democratic platform is equal rights for (in this case) women and gays, and religious toleration. The D. platform is also against the death penalty and while they might not mind some good old fashioned swining I believe Democrats are not in favor of bigomy.

If there's some self evident method of perception by which those on the left are able to justify defending a longstanding practice of non-separated church and state in countries that as often as not abolish the practice of faiths other than Islam, if there is some moral trigonometry trick that makes it easier to square the idea of women being killed at even the suspicion of adultery, women having no right to divorce, men having all rights to all the children and the right to take on more than one wife, much less the way they treat homosexuals, I'm afraid its lost on me.

I'm not however outraged... I say, let them stew in their own juices. Still I don't see the need to split hairs about fundamentalism because it's a completely subjective guage. I'm not religous so I don't see the point of even joining a religion if you don't want a literal connection to its ancient roots; the only Christians I really like, for example, are those in the Orthodox churches. You get these snake charmers in Georgia and I don't see the point. Why even bother joining a church if you're just going to make it up as you go? I don't like Zen Buddhism, I don't like Protestant Christianity and I wouldn't see the point of any new modulations of the Islamic faith either.

Either way I don't think we really have any idea who it is we've put in power and I don't think they'll be any better than Gaddafi. What a nightmare. What is it exactly we're supposed to have done here?

Huckleby
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Huckleby » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:04 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Either way I don't think we really have any idea who it is we've put in power and I don't think they'll be any better than Gaddafi.

nah, things are relatively hopeful in Libya.

The fact that Gaddafi was mauled by a mob means nothing. The revolution was fought in chaotic manner by many local militias that had no training and little central control. Given the maniacal hatred ofGaddafi, his brutal demise was inevitable. This does not reflect on the transition govenment or the prospects for democracy.

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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:13 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:Either way I don't think we really have any idea who it is we've put in power and I don't think they'll be any better than Gaddafi.

nah, things are relatively hopeful in Libya.

The fact that Gaddafi was mauled by a mob means nothing. The revolution was fought in chaotic manner by many local militias that had no training and little central control. Given the maniacal hatred ofGaddafi, his brutal demise was inevitable. This does not reflect on the transition govenment or the prospects for democracy.

Let me put this into perspective. After the end of the American Revolution, those colonists who were loyal to the British often suffered greatly. For example in New York, homes were burned down and some loyalists were lynched. To escape persecution, many of those Tories left the newly created United States and settled in other British controlled territories in the New World.

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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby ilikebeans » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:23 pm

For what it's worth, from the mouth of Abdel Hakim Belhadj, the head of the rebel forces:

'We Are Simply Muslim': Libyan Rebel Chief Denies Al-Qaeda Ties

Are you in favor of the establishment of an Islamic State in Libya, or of Sharia?

We are members of the Libyan society and we are simply Muslim. We do not distinguish the application of justice. All that we want is protection, security, and confidence for our country, our neighbors, and all countries with which we have relations.

In Libya, we have lived 42 years without a constitution, without law, without justice. That's what led to the fall of this dictatorial regime. We want a civil state that respects the law and rights, a state that applies justice. As far as the form of the regime and of the government, that is up to the Libyan people. We will give back our weapons; we are not here to establish a Taliban-like regime through a coup d'état.

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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby wack wack » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:30 pm

Bludgeon wrote:If there's some self evident method of perception by which those on the left are able to justify defending a longstanding practice of non-separated church and state in countries that as often as not abolish the practice of faiths other than Islam, if there is some moral trigonometry trick that makes it easier to square the idea of women being killed at even the suspicion of adultery, women having no right to divorce, men having all rights to all the children and the right to take on more than one wife, much less the way they treat homosexuals, I'm afraid its lost on me.


Are you suggesting it is only the left that has tolerated and developed relationships with "non-separated church and state" countries? That would be false.

As most liberals I know are genuine in their desire for complete separation of church and state, I don't see the conflict in working on a governmental level with countries who manage religion in other ways.

It takes no more "moral trigonometry" to square the beliefs and practices of fundamental Islam than it does to square the beliefs and practices of fundamental Christianity. The pro-life, pro-capital punishment position held by many Christians is as absurd as as any in Islam. And frankly, I find Islam to be less hypocritical than the Christianity currently practiced in America.

Huckleby
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Huckleby » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:34 pm

Israel is example of a religous state that is relatively tolerant. Of course their fundamentalists sent the country down a rathole by pushing for colonization of "Greater Israel." Small parties sometimes get disproportionate power in parlimentary governments.

Libya is probably most hopeful country of Arab Spring. They are starting from scratch, no menacing institutions like a powerful army.

Bludgeon
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:02 pm

Huckleby wrote:Israel is example of a religous state that is relatively tolerant. Of course their fundamentalists sent the country down a rathole by pushing for colonization of "Greater Israel." Small parties sometimes get disproportionate power in parlimentary governments.

Libya is probably most hopeful country of Arab Spring. They are starting from scratch, no menacing institutions like a powerful army.


I wish there was a "like" button on TDPF, I like that comment. I hope you're correct in the last two sentences. May I ask, do you really feel confident that we have a very clear idea at all of just who it is western powers have put in power there?

One of the main questions on my mind is why we're involved there at all, from wars to politics or religion as some prefer. I don't see what they gain from us or what we gain from them. In my opinion the only practical purpose of any Middle Eastern policy from the U.S. is the protection of Israel - not on a continuing basis, but if they're legitimately attacked by a threat that is beyond them. Otherwise I think they've got the strongest military in the Middle East, one of the strongest economies, a fairly open society, I think they're fine on their own - that our involvement there should be strictly in the shape of a formal alliance. I don't see how the rest of the region could be any less volatile for our not being there.

If we are going to be there, for god knows what reason, setting up governments, I don't see why we would have anything to do with the establishment of a government whose tenets are in any way based on dogmatic religious practice.

Huckleby
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Huckleby » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:22 am

Bludgeon wrote:If we are going to be there, for god knows what reason, setting up governments, I don't see why we would have anything to do with the establishment of a government whose tenets are in any way based on dogmatic religious practice.

Your view of the situation is far too pessimistic.

Fundamentalist Islam has lost support in the Arab world. Al-Qaeda is extremely unpopular. The seat of radical Islam is in Pakistan. I guess you could say Iran too, but that's very different. The Mullahs of Iran have scared-off Arabs from wanting religous goverment.

Its too uncertain and complex to convinc, we'll just have to watch events unfold. Tunisia just elected a goverment where the leading party was moderate Islamic. The people of Arab world do not want strict Shariah law.

Bludgeon
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:20 pm

What I wonder most of all is how it is most of us feel with any confidence that we have any idea what is going on in the Middle East. We don't speak the language - not being able to speak the language makes our information utterly dependent on what is reported to us through official channels. I personally like to verify for myself about any topic relating to domestic affairs - no such option here. Almost everything we hear from over here is either propaganda, agenda driven activism, or coincidental, anecdotal static noise. I don't like propaganda, not susceptible to activism, so while I'm sympathetic to the human condition in all places, I'm very pessimistic about all the News from the East. So far as the reports I've seen go, Shariah law is what they intend to enact in Libya this year.

How do we, the citizens, really have any idea who it is we're helping or hurting in the region? We can't even rely on what we're generally told about our nation's interactions with militant Cartel groups in Mexico.

I like the idea that the Arab world is moving away from fundamentalism. On the other hand there are many American liberals who would even object to your assertion that it's a good thing. I caution you only against making too broad a generalization about what the Arab world as a whole wants. Certainly a lot of males, young and old, probably do want Shariah law. Then there are instances that work directly against your assertion - the growing movement, for instance, on behalf of Islamic immigrants, to impose Shariah law on Western countries from Holland to England to France to Canada.

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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Marvell » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:27 pm

Bludgeon wrote:I don't like propaganda[.]


That's odd, given that it's all you ever seem to spew.

Huckleby
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Huckleby » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:52 pm

Marvell, do you have any capacity for friendly, intelligent conversation?

Maybe you just need a hug. Come here, what's troubling you?

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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby rabble » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:09 pm

You mean Bludgie sometimes spews something that isn't propaganda? Could you expand on that a little bit?

Huckleby
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Re: The Libya Thing...

Postby Huckleby » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:47 pm

I'm not the hall monitor, and too self-absorbed to get worked up by other posters.

All I know is I have ok back & forth with bludge, and frankly, my view of him is probably conflated with a couple other conservative leaning posters.

I think the intelligence level of this forum is very high. It really is a good place to accidently learn stuff. People challenge with good arguments, keeps ya on your toes.

Once people start personalized bickering the dumbing down begins.


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