Israel's war crimes

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jonnygothispen
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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:29 pm

Ah, Bland OK. I didn't know which one you meant. However, again, I disagree. The 1967 war is the immediate cause of the current problem. The US vetoing UN resolutions to bring Israel into compliance, is what allows the illegal blockades and invasions to continue. What I see is a reaction by Palestinians under severe conditions created by Israel. I think what you explained, more accurately, is the reason for Israel's paranoia. What I'm trying to explain is the reason the crimes are continuing and how they might be stopped.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby Bland » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:47 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:The 1967 war is the immediate cause of the current problem.

It's pretty convenient to say that arbitrarily, but unfortunately for your argument, the history of Israel begins in 1948.
It also ignores the intervening years, when Egyptian border raids led to the Suez Campaign and the PLO was founded with the express purpose of liquidating Israel.
jonnygothispen wrote: The US vetoing UN resolutions to bring Israel into compliance, is what allows the illegal blockades and invasions to continue.

That may well be, but again, it's not like only Israel defies the UN in that region. The 1967 war would likely have never occurred if Egypt hadn't booted the UN peacekeepers in the first place.

jonnygothispen wrote: What I see is a reaction by Palestinians under severe conditions created by Israel.

What I see is a very complicated, very old hatred, seething and burning on both sides with idiots who hinder peace on both ends of the spectrum.
jonnygothispen wrote: I think what you explained, more accurately, is the reason for Israel's paranoia.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean your neighbors don't want you dead.
jonnygothispen wrote: What I'm trying to explain is the reason the crimes are continuing and how they might be stopped.
They will never be stopped by anti-Israeli screeds. I can appreciate that you think there needs to be more balanced coverage, but what your providing is just a different bias.
Peace can only be achieved when the interests and concerns of both parties are considered.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby Jazznews » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:56 pm

The PLO would negotiate. Yassir Arafat would say one thing in English and totally opposite in Arabic. He encouraged young people to sacrifice their lives by becoming suicide bombers, but meanwhile he was stealing money. He got a lot of money for recruiting bombers, the young people would die horrible deaths, young Israelis - women and children would die or be permanently disabled, and the families of the bombers would receive money for new homes... Often that money came from Saddam Hussein - he admitted it. And the Israelis destroyed the homes to try and discourage more bombers.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:47 pm

Bland wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:The 1967 war is the immediate cause of the current problem.

It's pretty convenient to say that arbitrarily, but unfortunately for your argument, the history of Israel begins in 1948.

The history just prior to Israel's unilateral declaration of independence is also important.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby ilikebeans » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:40 pm

Bland wrote:What I see is a very complicated, very old hatred, seething and burning on both sides with idiots who hinder peace on both ends of the spectrum.
...
Peace can only be achieved when the interests and concerns of both parties are considered.

Nailed it.

We can debate the history of the situation until we drop (or sprain our mouse fingers cutting/pasting), but the reality is that nothing will be gained until BOTH sides can let go of the hatred and revenge cycles to deal in the here-and-now.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:19 pm

I'm just saying that Israel holds the cards and is the key. They were awarded what was essentially land stolen on their behalf. The essence of the white paper of 1922, was to reverse the 1917 Balfour agreement, which some in Britain realized was a mistake and an ethnic war in the making. When that failed it set the stage for everything that was to come. There are many analogies you can use. You can go back to even biblical times. But assuming the creation of Israel was legal, correct and/or moral, which you could argue successfully that it was not, then at least since 1967 Israel has been the clear aggressor. Their sealing off of borders, stealing land, demolishing houses, building illegal settlements, targeting civilians, etal, are acts of war on any other country in the world, clearly.

So then there has to be a set standard. Where do you start? before the land was stolen and given to Israel, or after, or another time? Israel seeks an agreement that allows them to continue to violate International laws, which is why they're rejected. Some were rejected foolishly. And meanwhile, they continue these illegal acts, illegal settlements, stealing resources, harassment, and whatever they choose while we look away as if their must be some confusion about it. It's not that complicated. Israel can start following International laws anytime they wish and the International community will respond to transgressions, or, with US vetoes, they can continue the ethnic cleansing and illegal actions they've become spoiled on because of our vetoes, which is naturally what they'll seek until told they can't. that's why I place the burden on Israel, and why I think all we have to do is say, "hey, no more vetoes until you start to give real concessions."

Further, if you go back to 1948, or even 1967, then you cannot ignore that Israel's arrogance initiated the attack against the US in 1967, which was w/o a doubt deliberate and calculated, not an accident. Nor can you ignore that the primary motivation for the 9/11 attacks was because of US support of Israel, and their crimes in the region. Putting emotions aside, I say the burden is clearly on Israel, especially after 9/11. There are no more good excuses to use on their behalf (unless it just makes you feel good as a comfort food).

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby Jazznews » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:41 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:I'm just saying that Israel holds the cards and is the key. They were awarded what was essentially land stolen on their behalf.


Actually a lot of the land was bought and paid for by the people of Israel.



Nor can you ignore that the primary motivation for the 9/11 attacks was because of US support of Israel, and their crimes in the region. Putting emotions aside, I say the burden is clearly on Israel, especially after 9/11. There are no more good excuses to use on their behalf (unless it just makes you feel good as a comfort food).


You're blaming 9/11 on Israel? You do know that there were 19 hijackers and 15 of them were from Saudi Arabia - a good friend. It had nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with Osama bin Laden and his fatwa against Jews and the US. But then you already know that don't you. :wink:

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:07 pm

According to the 9/11 mastermind, US policy towards Israel and the resulting damage Israel is doing in the region,was the primary motivation for the 9/11 attacks along with other US policies in the Middle East. According to the FBI, there is no solid evidence that Osama Bin Laden was involved in the 9/11 attacks at all. I believe the video of his "admission" is completely proven to be a fake. I think Wahibbi Jihdists from Saudi Arabia who committed the attacks. The FBI seems unconcerned since 4 or 5 of the 9/11 hijackers on their list are still alive.

US support of Israel is the Primary motive for the 9/11 attacks, says 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed; w/support from US intelligence officials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7EB1FxE ... xt_from=PL

And for everyone else: I don't hate Israel. I have no opinion about the Jewish religion. Semitism, or anti-semitism has nothing to do with it at all. It doesn't register on my radar screen. I definitely think Israel should have their own state, even though the way they got it was kind of nefarious.

I hate the misinformation campaign they've been using, the crimes they're committing, and the fact we're suffering Internationally over it.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby Jazznews » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:38 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:According to the 9/11 mastermind, US policy towards Israel and the resulting damage Israel is doing in the region,was the primary motivation for the 9/11 attacks along with other US policies in the Middle East.


So you excuse the killing of 3000 people on 9/11 just because you dislike Israel?


According to the FBI, there is no solid evidence that Osama Bin Laden was involved in the 9/11 attacks at all. I believe the video of his "admission" is completely proven to be a fake.


Nope.


I think Wahibbi Jihdists from Saudi Arabia who committed the attacks. The FBI seems unconcerned since 4 or 5 of the 9/11 hijackers on their list are still alive.


Osama bin Laden is Wahibi and definitely a jihadist. None of the hijackers is alive. No one could survive this:
Plane hits WTC - from the Naudet brothers

...or any of the other crashes.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:16 pm

Jazznews wrote: So you excuse the killing of 3000 people on 9/11 just because you dislike Israel?

According to the FBI, there is no solid evidence that Osama Bin Laden was involved in the 9/11 attacks at all. I believe the video of his "admission" is completely proven to be a fake.


Nope.


I think Wahibbi Jihdists from Saudi Arabia who committed the attacks. The FBI seems unconcerned since 4 or 5 of the 9/11 hijackers on their list are still alive.


Osama bin Laden is Wahibi and definitely a jihadist. None of the hijackers is alive. No one could survive this:
Plane hits WTC - from the Naudet brothers

...or any of the other crashes.


People in Gaza and the West Bank have nothing to do with Saudi Arabian's who attacked us or Osama. I do not dislike Israel. I dislike what they are doing and how that has directly affected America.

The FBI said a couple summers ago that they have no solid evidence linking Osama to the 9/11 attacks. They do not list 9/11 on his most wanted page as something he was involved in.

5 to 7 of the hijackers the FBI lists as having committed the 9/11 attacks are still alive:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

http://www.google.com/search?q=9+11+hij ... =firefox-a


Revealed: the men with stolen identities


By David Harrison
Published: 12:01AM BST 23 Sep 2001

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ities.html

THEIR names were flashed around the world as suicide hijackers who carried out the attacks on America. But yesterday four innocent men told how their identities had been stolen by Osama bin Laden's teams to cover their tracks...The men - all from Saudi Arabia - spoke of their shock at being mistakenly named by the FBI as suicide terrorists. None of the four was in the United States on September 11 and all are alive in their home country.

The Saudi Airlines pilot, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, 25, and Abdulaziz Al-Omari, an engineer from Riyadh, are furious that the hijackers' "personal details" - including name, place, date of birth and occupation - matched their own.

blah, blah, blah...: )

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby ilikebeans » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:10 am

jonnygothispen wrote:at least since 1967 Israel has been the clear aggressor. Their sealing off of borders, stealing land, demolishing houses, building illegal settlements, targeting civilians, etal, are acts of war on any other country in the world, clearly.

This is why I can't take you seriously: You just completely, probably intentionally, ignored all the suicide bombings, rocket attacks, kidnappings, and other miscellaneous acts of war committed against Israel by the Palestinians. On bombings alone, there were 70 instances in five years. There have been 7500 (!!) rockets launched into one town alone, Sderot, Israel, over a period of eight years. It's pretty obvious that, if they had the means for larger weapons of war, the Palestinians would attack Israel with whatever they could get their hands on.

I'm not excusing Israel's actions, which yes, rise to the level of war crimes. I'm saying you're an ideologue, completely blind to the reality that NEITHER side has behaved particularly well for decades. There is no good guy in this conflict. Time to let go of the us-vs.-them worldview you hold.

More importantly, if there is ever to be peace in the region, both sides have to let go of their us-vs.-them mentality.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby Jazznews » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:24 am

jonnygothispen wrote:
People in Gaza and the West Bank have nothing to do with Saudi Arabian's who attacked us or Osama.


They were dancing in the streets when the 9/11 attacks happened.


johnnygothispen wrote:The FBI said a couple summers ago that they have no solid evidence linking Osama to the 9/11 attacks. They do not list 9/11 on his most wanted page as something he was involved in.

Fact

In order to be listed on the FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitive list, the suspect must have been indicted for the crime. To indict Bin Laden formally for the 9/11 attacks would require presenting evidence in a court of law; such evidence linking Bin Laden to 9/11 would include intelligence sources, and Al-Qaeda detainees. Making such sources (and methods) publicly known, perhaps isn't advised. In the Zacarias Moussaoui case, a big deal was made over access to detainee witnesses and about handling evidence from other intelligence sources.

In all, the 9/11 attacks were viewed as an "act of war", and the U.S. government is responding accordingly. During the Clinton administration, terrorism was handled more as a matter of law enforcement. This change in how terrorism is handled may be yet another reason why the U.S. government has not bothered to formally indict Bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks.

Regarding this matter, FBI officials told the Washington Post:

"There's no mystery here," said FBI spokesman Rex Tomb. "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it." [1]

A document released by the U.K. government, Responsibility for the terrorist atrocities in the United States, 11 September 2001 presents facts that link Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda to the 9/11 attacks.

Debunk 9/11 Myths



jonnygothispen wrote:5 to 7 of the hijackers the FBI lists as having committed the 9/11 attacks are still alive:


Then who do you and Alex Jones think were in the planes? They have the names because they were on the passenger lists. And there are videos of a few of them getting on the planes. Plus they have records that some of them took flight lessons.

As for Israel and the Palestinians. Palestinians see TV shows about Jews using Muslim blood to make matzoh. There is hatre taught on both sides. The best way wold be for them to live together in peace like in this village:
Neve Shalom/Wahat al-Salam

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:09 pm

ilikebeans wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:at least since 1967 Israel has been the clear aggressor. Their sealing off of borders, stealing land, demolishing houses, building illegal settlements, targeting civilians, etal, are acts of war on any other country in the world, clearly.

This is why I can't take you seriously: You just completely, probably intentionally, ignored all the suicide bombings, rocket attacks, kidnappings, and other miscellaneous acts of war committed against Israel by the Palestinians. On bombings alone, there were 70 instances in five years. There have been 7500 (!!) rockets launched into one town alone, Sderot, Israel, over a period of eight years. It's pretty obvious that, if they had the means for larger weapons of war, the Palestinians would attack Israel with whatever they could get their hands on.

I'm not excusing Israel's actions, which yes, rise to the level of war crimes. I'm saying you're an ideologue, completely blind to the reality that NEITHER side has behaved particularly well for decades. There is no good guy in this conflict. Time to let go of the us-vs.-them worldview you hold.

More importantly, if there is ever to be peace in the region, both sides have to let go of their us-vs.-them mentality.


So you're saying that it's wrong for Gazan's to defend themselves?

but put that into context first. Hamas was formed with Israel's help to create chaos with the PLO 21 years AFTER the illegal occupation began. The 7,500 rockets have killed how many? 20 civilians in the last 8 years. Yet Israel just killed 894 civilians in the last offensive, and often deliberately targeted civilians and kids, even UN shelters. They continually give the world, International law, and now again, the USA the "bird."

Just the last offensive alone was enough for me...What I've been saying is that Israel provoked the response that they WANT so they can continue to illegally steal more land. that's EXACTLY what they've been doing. But it you want to "feel good" about what you believe, just continue ignoring how it started, the concessions from the other side, etc.

Telling Israel to stop building new and illegal settlements was just TOO much for them. They flipped Obama off. I don't see what strategic advantage Israel is for us. They attacked us, and never made reparations. Their actions in the middle East are supposedly why we were attacked on 9/11. I've had enough of making excuses for them because of the holocaust. They're operating the longest running military occupation now.

What if someone armed the American Indians, gave them nukes, $200 billion in reported and unreported aid, vetoed other countries from imposing International laws, and they slowly wiped us off the map, as Israel is doing in the West bank and in Gaza?

it just doesn't gel...Pro Israel is a full load of brainwashing.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:55 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:So you're saying that it's wrong for Gazan's to defend themselves?

Suicide bombers and random rockets targeting the civilian population are not "self defense," they are acts of aggression.

Btw, Israel likes to use the same language you just spouted. "Oh yeah, our little weeks-long bombing run and troop encursion, killing hundreds and destroying a city's infrastructure? It was self-defense."

jonnygothispen wrote:Israel just killed 894 civilians in the last offensive, and often deliberately targeted civilians and kids...

And Palestinian suicide bombers have also killed hundreds over the years, often deliberately targeting civilians and kids. Both practices are wrong, wrong, wrong.

jonnygothispen wrote:But it you want to "feel good" about what you believe, just continue ignoring how it started, the concessions from the other side, etc.

There is no "feeling good" about this situation.

jonnygothispen wrote:it just doesn't gel...Pro Israel is a full load of brainwashing.

I am not pro-Israel. You can stop putting words in my mouth any day now.

I'm done here. You can go on assuming that one side is always the aggressor and the other always complacent. That is obviously not the situation, nor is it going to bring about any kind of solution. I've wasted too much time getting sucked into this thread already.

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Re: Israel's war crimes

Postby Jazznews » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:29 pm

9/11 was a horrific attack. There was no reason or excuse for it. The people killed were innocent workers from many different countries who never did anything to Gaza or Osama bn Laden. But then that's what all of bin Ladens' attacks have been - attacks on innocent people - often native Muslims. Just as the cowardly Palestinian suicide bombings killed and maimed innocent people. Bin Laden and Arafat talked many young people into destroying their lives but never had the guts to do the same thing themselves.


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