A very disturbing story

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GODDOG
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby GODDOG » Thu May 21, 2009 11:09 am

gargantua wrote:If that were true, that the state wants to poison someone, I would agree with you.

But they don't. The issue is the availability of a life-saving treatment, that may have very unpleasant side effects. Claiming that the issue is that he doesn't want to be poisoned adds nothing to the debate, because it's inflammatory and simply not true.

Do you know what chemo-therapy even is? Let me explain...
it is the poisoning of the body. Creating a toxic environment within the body so as to kill the cancer cells, the weak ones at least, and by doing so causing the body to be so toxic the cancer cannot attack healthy cells. Poisoning. It is not hyperbole. Unpleasant side effects? puking for hours on end...unable to eat...constant headaches...on the verge of death there G.
I don't claim he doesn't want to be poisoned HE did. The kid had already been through chemo and doesn't want to suffer that way again. There are alternatives. Remember how medicine cured headaches in years past? drilling into the cranium and letting out some of the blood/pressure and demons! More recently enemas were believed to cure pretty much every affliction know to man...at least there is some basis for that. I agree some can handle the chemo but until you have watched someone suffer from it's "unpleasant side effects" I say let the poor kid find an alternative. It is not a death wish but a search for a better path to conquering this horrible killer disease.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 21, 2009 11:51 am

According to CNN & USAToday & other sources:

"Colleen Hauser testified earlier that she had been treating his cancer with herbal supplements, vitamins, ionized water and other natural alternatives" - in other words, she's doing basically nothing.

Colleen Hauser, testified [...]: "My son is not in any medical danger at this point." - what does that mean? Cancer that is growing = medical danger.

According to the judge: Daniel has only a "rudimentary understanding at best of the risks and benefits of chemotherapy. ... he does not believe he is ill currently. The fact is that he is very ill currently." - How can he believe he isn't ill given that what led them initially to discover the cancer were symptoms such as "persistent cough, fatigue and swollen lymph nodes" and that Daniel recently "had said he was in severe pain".

His cancer "responded well to an initial round of chemotherapy" and the "tumor shrank after the first round of chemo" - so we know the treatment is effective.

His cancer has grown substantially since going off chemotherapy "to the size it was when he was first diagnosed." - so we know the "better path" is NOT effective.

"According to Daniel's court testimony, he believes the chemo will kill him" - completely ridiculous.

"Doctors have said Daniel's cancer had a 90 percent chance of being cured with chemotherapy and radiation. Without those treatments, doctors said his chances of survival are 5 percent" - With ionized water, though, obviously his chances will improve. :roll:

His parents, unlike Daniel himself, believe that the issue is not that it will kill him, but "that it is against the spiritual law to invade the consciousness of another person without their permission." - So his parents seem to agree it would be effective, but think that he, basically, has a right to be ignorant.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby GODDOG » Thu May 21, 2009 12:19 pm

TAsunder wrote:According to CNN & USAToday & other sources:

Beacons of truth and responsible journalism!

TAsunder wrote: - So his parents seem to agree it would be effective, but think that he, basically, has a right to be ignorant.

We don't have that right? Where in the Constitution does it claim we can't be ignorant? I've been guilty on multiple occasions, at least until enlightened beings like yourself have shown me the right...i mean light.
It is said we may have killed one innocent person for every nine put to death on death row. Where is the moral outrage? When a family chooses ignorance as TA puts it, we get bent. Well the Constitution does protect those in religious belief systems from being controlled or manipulated by our governance. Yes..you maybe right TA, they are religious zealots but they are free to be so. If he dies he dies. He died his way. Not by some forced procedure he and his family find no faith in. How do those redneck bumper stickers explain it?...Freedom Ain't Free. Sad story but let the kid live or die, his life, not yours.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby Chuck_Schick » Thu May 21, 2009 12:33 pm

GODDOG wrote:Do you know what chemo-therapy even is? Let me explain...

Are you an oncologist? If not I'd just as soon drive through Taco Bell to get my transmission serviced as listen to your "expert" opinion on the matter, jackass.

Any parent who would sit by and watch their child die when there is a preponderance of data showing that he or she could be effectively treated should be chemically castrated so we can prevent pathetic stories like this one from polluting the front page in the future.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby eriedasch » Thu May 21, 2009 12:37 pm

GODDOG wrote:
gargantua wrote:If that were true, that the state wants to poison someone, I would agree with you.

But they don't. The issue is the availability of a life-saving treatment, that may have very unpleasant side effects. Claiming that the issue is that he doesn't want to be poisoned adds nothing to the debate, because it's inflammatory and simply not true.

Do you know what chemo-therapy even is? Let me explain...
it is the poisoning of the body. Creating a toxic environment within the body so as to kill the cancer cells, the weak ones at least, and by doing so causing the body to be so toxic the cancer cannot attack healthy cells. Poisoning. It is not hyperbole. Unpleasant side effects? puking for hours on end...unable to eat...constant headaches...on the verge of death there G.

If the state cared about lessening the side effects they would allow medical marijuana. Proven to help reduce or eliminate all of these in cancer and other patents for many years.

Speaking of destroying cancer cells do I dare bring this up?
Article from back in 2006:
Cannabis destroys cancer cells... reveals research at Barts and The London, Queen Mary's School of Medicine
http://www.qmul.ac.uk/news/newsrelease.php?news_id=175

I agree, I am side-tracking, and in this case of the here & now, this 13 year old should take the chemo/radiation based on the odds of survival.

But there are alternatives that our western / U.S. / for-profit health care system continue to ignore, or at least consider for further research, in favor of just sticking with chemo radiation for cancer as being the ONLY way.

Another side-track: If the kid ended up going thru the treatment, do the parents even have insurance that would cover it? Or would they rack up enough medical bills to send them into bankruptcy? I'm sure the least of their worries, but something everyone with a catostrophic life threatening disease must face if choose expensive western treatments and survive.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 21, 2009 12:39 pm

GODDOG wrote:
TAsunder wrote:According to CNN & USAToday & other sources:

Beacons of truth and responsible journalism!


Feel free to provide sources of your own. FoxNews has articles with similar if not identical content. I am not sure where you are going to find a "beacon of truth and responsible journalism" that has statements that contradict any of the above.

We don't have that right? Where in the Constitution does it claim we can't be ignorant? I've been guilty on multiple occasions, at least until enlightened beings like yourself have shown me the right...i mean light.


Children at times do not have the right to make many decisions such as this, according to overwhelming amounts of written law and case law. This child clearly does not understand the issues at play and as such, no, he doesn't have a right to choose for himself out of ignorance.

Yes..you maybe right TA, they are religious zealots but they are free to be so.


Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. This is the only legitimate issue to debate in this case... the right of the parents to be religious zealouts in the face of reason. The issue is not, as you claimed earlier, whether the kid should be able to choose for himself. He doesn't understand the issues, so he shouldn't.

Not by some forced procedure he and his family find no faith in.


His parents clearly believe chemo works. It is not a matter of whether it would work or not, but whether it is ok to use this method of therapy.

This issue is really pretty simple and boils down to this question: "Do parents have a right to refuse medically necessary treatments for their children based on religious beliefs?"

It is not: "Do 13 year olds who can't read and don't understand how chemotherapy works have a right to refuse it?"

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby GODDOG » Thu May 21, 2009 12:44 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:Are you an oncologist? If not I'd just as soon drive through Taco Bell to get my transmission serviced as listen to your "expert" opinion on the matter, jackass.

Never claimed to be an expert. Having seen chemotherapy first hand, I know it isn't always effective though.
"jackass"...wow! what eloquence and prose! And I'd rather listen to ten thousand four year olds play out of tune violins then you on guitar. Without Schenky you are nothing but another lousy washed up musician. POW! :twisted:

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 21, 2009 12:45 pm

eriedasch wrote:But there are alternatives that our western / U.S. / for-profit health care system continue to ignore, or at least consider for further research, in favor of just sticking with chemo radiation for cancer as being the ONLY way.


There surely are alternatives worth trying. In this case, however, the parents chose some junk alternatives like ionized water. They tried them, and they aren't working. Time to move on to something that we know will work. If they had been using marijuana and the tumor were shrinking, this would be a completely different conversation.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby GODDOG » Thu May 21, 2009 12:57 pm

So...TA, if this kid had all his facilities in order you'd be okay with him making this decision? It seems from your argument that because he has been classified as "slow" he can't possibly know what is best for himself. The kid has been dealing with this disease for some time and I would bet your life savings that somebody told him he might die. The dumbest dog knows when death is knocking. Letting the family follow their own path hurts who? Are we worried about precedence? That might be the best argument yet. But, If we can now start dictating treatments for other peoples kids...well I know a lot of fat kids whose parents are killing them everyday twinkie by twinkie. By the way TA, thanks for keeping it classy. We may disagree on an issue that really has no effect on the sun rising or setting but I appreciate your civility. Fuck Chuck!
Last edited by GODDOG on Thu May 21, 2009 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby eriedasch » Thu May 21, 2009 12:59 pm

TAsunder wrote:There surely are alternatives worth trying. In this case, however, the parents chose some junk alternatives like ionized water. They tried them, and they aren't working. Time to move on to something that we know will work. If they had been using marijuana and the tumor were shrinking, this would be a completely different conversation.


I agree completely. That is why I stated this first:

eriedasch wrote:... in this case of the here & now, this 13 year old should take the chemo/radiation based on the odds of survival.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 21, 2009 1:19 pm

GODDOG wrote:So...TA, if this kid had all his facilities in order you'd be okay with him making this decision?


Hard to say, since I am not an expert on the issues surrounding treating children as adults. But at least it would be a discussion worth having.

It seems from your argument that because he has been classified as "slow" he can't possibly know what is best for himself. The kid has been dealing with this disease for some time and I would bet your life savings that somebody told him he might die. The dumbest dog knows when death is knocking.


My point is mostly based on statements Daniel himself made indicating that he doesn't believe he is ill and that he believes chemotherapy will kill him. The additional fact that he can't read and has a learning disability merely further discredits the notion that he is capable of making decisions rationally as if he were an adult.

Letting the family follow their own path hurts who?


It hurts the kid.

Personally, while I have strong beliefs about religious freedom and the establishment clause (ask me how I feel about the bus ads that advocate my own opinion some day), I have no ability to see the point of view of the parents in this particular case. Their religious beliefs in this case appear to be based on following the teachings of a convicted fraudster. They now have ample evidence that the chemo works and their treatments don't. In other words, they know the kid will die if they continue using the treatments they are using and know that the chemo will at least reduce the tumor's size. Their stated reasons for not allowing the effective treatment seem to only hurt the cause of those who have legitimate claims in matters like this.

Cut and dry to me. If this were about chemo with a lower success rate for some more difficult cancer and they were following some religion that at least has a semblance of legitimacy (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses - not saying I like that organization either), then I would feel more sympathy for the parents.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby fisticuffs » Thu May 21, 2009 1:27 pm

Personally, while I have strong beliefs about religious freedom and the establishment clause (ask me how I feel about the bus ads that advocate my own opinion some day), I have no ability to see the point of view of the parents in this particular case. Their religious beliefs in this case appear to be based on following the teachings of a convicted fraudster.


they were following some religion that at least has a semblance of legitimacy (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses - not saying I like that organization either), then I would feel more sympathy for the parents.


So religious freedom only extends to those religions you somewhat agree with? So bro. All or nothing. I think ALL religions are full of retarded wack jobs. Some of whom have very good intentions and a lot who don't but this is Amerrrica right? Why did Brittan's Puritanical nut jobs come here in the first place? So they could be as wacked out as they wanted to be. Fine. But Church and State are separate. Conservatives seem to skip that part of the Constitution they so loudly (and hypocritically) claim they want to get back to. in fact how is it at all possible to be both a Conservative Republican and think that the US is a Christian Nation at the same time? Pretty fucking big conflict there I'd think.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 21, 2009 1:38 pm

fisticuffs wrote:So religious freedom only extends to those religions you somewhat agree with?


Not at all. I don't "somewhat agree" with any of them. Religious freedom should only extend, within reason, to legitimate religions. And by legitimate I mean, whether it's correct usage or not, legally recognized.

So bro. All or nothing. I think ALL religions are full of retarded wack jobs. Some of whom have very good intentions and a lot who don't but this is Amerrrica right? Why did Brittan's Puritanical nut jobs come here in the first place? So they could be as wacked out as they wanted to be. Fine. But Church and State are separate. Conservatives seem to skip that part of the Constitution they so loudly (and hypocritically) claim they want to get back to. in fact how is it at all possible to be both a Conservative Republican and think that the US is a Christian Nation at the same time? Pretty fucking big conflict there I'd think.


I'm confused by your message here. I guess you equate all religions in terms of "whack jobbyness" whereas I evaluate on a case by case basis before determining the degree of whack-jobbyness... is that what you are saying?

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby Chuck_Schick » Thu May 21, 2009 1:47 pm

GODDOG wrote:
Chuck_Schick wrote:Are you an oncologist? If not I'd just as soon drive through Taco Bell to get my transmission serviced as listen to your "expert" opinion on the matter, jackass.
Never claimed to be an expert. Having seen chemotherapy first hand, I know it isn't always effective though.

Ah, I see. You've seen one example of chemo failing, so that must mean it's a worthless endeavor regardless of the patient, the type of cancer, whether or not and to what degree that cancer has metastasized, etc., etc.

Let me get you a broom to paint with. That broad brush just ain't cutting it.

And I'd rather listen to ten thousand four year olds play out of tune violins then you on guitar.

I'm a bass player, dipshit. What, did you fail Clap For Credit?

Without Schenky you are nothing but another lousy washed up musician.

It's spelled "Shinky." You're really batting a thousand here, Sosa.

But way to take an anonymous cheap shot, pussy. Too bad I don't let noisy little nits like you ruffle my feathers or you might really have something going there, Champ.

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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby GODDOG » Thu May 21, 2009 2:21 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:Ah, I see. You've seen one example of chemo failing, so that must mean it's a worthless endeavor regardless of the patient, the type of cancer, whether or not and to what degree that cancer has metastasized, etc., etc.

nice assumption here. I've seen more than one case, some successful some not and no I don't think it's worthless, just barbaric. In due time better treatments may come (e.g. ozone therapy)

Chuck_Schick wrote:Let me get you a broom to paint with. That broad brush just ain't cutting it.

Hold on to that broom...seems you need it more than I.

Chuck_Schick wrote:I'm a bass player, dipshit.

umm...there is a such a thing called bass GUITAR. and to claim you are a player...pause for laughter...I've known dead men's hearts that can keep a better beat or baseline than you ever could. Has been was too nice...never was, is more like it.


Chuck_Schick wrote:It's spelled "Shinky."

either way you still suck.

Chuck_Schick wrote:But way to take an anonymous cheap shot, pussy. Too bad I don't let noisy little nits like you ruffle my feathers or you might really have something going there, Champ.

ummm....ruffled them enough to get you to respond out of emotion and not logic there, champ. welcome back by the way...we missed your charm and two sentence retorts of self aggrandizing egotism. 8)


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