woman tasered at badger football game...

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Walter
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Postby Walter » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:19 am

MeatStick wrote:But you’re right Walter, I’m sure she deserved it as she probably didn’t comply to the officer’s satisfaction. Maybe the artificial knees slowed her down too much?


Finally, you got it. I'm glad you were able to see the situation clearly after divorcing your emotional involvement.

I don't think her artificial knees would have slowed her down if she had simply got up when asked...the first time.

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Postby ilikebeans » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:34 am

Walter wrote:
MeatStick wrote:But you’re right Walter, I’m sure she deserved it as she probably didn’t comply to the officer’s satisfaction. Maybe the artificial knees slowed her down too much?


Finally, you got it. I'm glad you were able to see the situation clearly after divorcing your emotional involvement.

I don't think her artificial knees would have slowed her down if she had simply got up when asked...the first time.

Um, Walter? I don't think you helped your case here.

This was UW Police, and I know you work for the city, but do you have some inside info on this situation, or are you defending purely out of professional courtesy?

The only eyewitness testimony I've seen so far is from Brent Perzentka, and it's not very complimentary to the officers involved.

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Re: woman tasered at badger football game...

Postby MeatStick » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:53 am

Walter wrote:
MeatStick wrote:But you’re right Walter, I’m sure she deserved it as she probably didn’t comply to the officer’s satisfaction. Maybe the artificial knees slowed her down too much?


Finally, you got it. I'm glad you were able to see the situation clearly after divorcing your emotional involvement.

I don't think her artificial knees would have slowed her down if she had simply got up when asked...the first time.


What a complete and total tool.

Walter wrote:Differences over this aside, thanks for the support. We don't often hear it and we all appreciate it.


Gee, I wonder why?

Maybe give them a chance to breathe in between tasings?

Walter
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Re:

Postby Walter » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:32 am

ilikebeans wrote:Um, Walter? I don't think you helped your case here.

This was UW Police, and I know you work for the city, but do you have some inside info on this situation, or are you defending purely out of professional courtesy?

The only eyewitness testimony I've seen so far is from Brent Perzentka, and it's not very complimentary to the officers involved.


If you go back to the top, I posted as an explanation of what likely happened and why based on incomplete, as usual, press reports. People were making statements without having background on use of force. There may be more to it or there may not be. I have no inside info and the only defense I make is for what I post because I speak for myself. I was trying to prevent people going off half-cocked, not make a defense for anyone or their actions.

If an officer screws up, they are accountable for it. I have never said otherwise. Given how sensitive police agencies are here, UW and Madison included, if the officers were wrong, they'll get hammered for it and the department sued.

I wouldn't call a letter to the editor testimony. Any one can write and say whatever they want, just like here. It doesn't make what they say true. If indeed such an outrageous use of force occurred to a helpless 54 year old woman in front of dozens, possibly hundreds, of witnesses, as name-calling Meatstick suggests, where are the rest of the letters? Video? Media follow-up?

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Re: woman tasered at badger football game...

Postby Walter » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:37 am

MeatStick wrote:
Walter wrote:
MeatStick wrote:But you’re right Walter, I’m sure she deserved it as she probably didn’t comply to the officer’s satisfaction. Maybe the artificial knees slowed her down too much?


Finally, you got it. I'm glad you were able to see the situation clearly after divorcing your emotional involvement.

I don't think her artificial knees would have slowed her down if she had simply got up when asked...the first time.


What a complete and total tool.

Walter wrote:Differences over this aside, thanks for the support. We don't often hear it and we all appreciate it.


Gee, I wonder why?

Maybe give them a chance to breathe in between tasings?


Ah, the last bastion of intelligent debate, name calling.

I still thank you for your support.

Quid Pro Quo
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Re:

Postby Quid Pro Quo » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:32 pm

Walter wrote:
Quid Pro Quo wrote:
Walter wrote:If you tell police "no" when ordered, you will be handcuffed as you have demonstrated the potential exists you will resist the next step in getting compliance.


Maybe that's true if you are a 54 year old disabled woman (she has two artificial knees and a bad back), but not so much when you're a large man who might not be so easy to cuff. I've been outright beligerant to cops and gotten away with it.

I'm sure the cops want people to believe that you must follow all of their orders without question, but the reality is that you do not; the law does not give them absolute authority over you. Granted, they have the power to outnumber and overwhelm, but there is a difference between power and authority.


You should use that luck and buy lottery tickets instead.

The reality is you must follow all lawful police orders or risk arrest. There is no absolute authority implied in all cases. However, you chance injury and/or legal problems because you have mistakenly interpreted whether or not an order is lawful.

There is redress for misconduct or improper action on behalf of officers. Does someone feel more right if he gets a hospital bill on top of bail? What happens if he's wrong?

Union workers know this maxim: work now, grieve later. The same principal applies when given an order; you have a lot to lose in trying to prove a point in which there is no foundation in law.


Luck has nothing to do with it. Bullies tend to back down a bit when they realize they don't scare you. If I'm dealing with an honest cop who is just doing his job, then there should be no problem. If I'm dealing with some sadistic petty tyrant, he can usually get the sense that I can and will take his head off before the tazer clears the holster, and again, there should be no problem. Since that philosophy has worked for almost 50 years, I see no reason to abandon it.

While it is true that you are legally obligated to comply with any lawful and legitemate orders from police, there is, as you admit, no absolute authority. I would much rather have to defend myself with "I did what I believed to be the right thing", than with "I was only following orders".

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Re: Re:

Postby Dulouz » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:19 pm

Walter wrote:If an officer screws up, they are accountable for it. I have never said otherwise. Given how sensitive police agencies are here, UW and Madison included, if the officers were wrong, they'll get hammered for it and the department sued.


Can you cite some examples of this? I seem to recall the "Patty" case taking several years and, even then, the apology was pretty lame and insincere. Did the officer in the patty case gets disciplined? suspended?

I've seen how long it takes the PFC to act against an officer and that is when the Chief wants them to act.

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Re: Re:

Postby Ducatista » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Quid Pro Quo wrote:If I'm dealing with some sadistic petty tyrant, he can usually get the sense that I can and will take his head off before the tazer clears the holster, and again, there should be no problem.

You may, in fact, be able to take a cop's head off. But I think people who make claims like "I could take someone's head off" are more likely to be the petty tyrants, and often unable to make good on their promises of supertoughguyness.

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Re: Re:

Postby Bland » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:14 pm

Ducatista wrote:
Quid Pro Quo wrote:If I'm dealing with some sadistic petty tyrant, he can usually get the sense that I can and will take his head off before the tazer clears the holster, and again, there should be no problem.

You may, in fact, be able to take a cop's head off. But I think people who make claims like "I could take someone's head off" are more likely to be the petty tyrants, and often unable to make good on their promises of supertoughguyness.

Not to mention the fact that QPQ has apparently had enough encounters with law enforcement officers to have developed an entire "philosophy" about it.
I've been to hundreds of shows, bars, clubs, games and other gatherings in my 25 years as an adult and I've yet to be hassled by police or security, let alone nearly come to blows. And I recall attending many such events as a child too and yet I cannot remember my parents ever being involved in any such incidents either. I wonder why?

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Re: Re:

Postby Walter » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:06 am

Dulouz wrote:
Walter wrote:If an officer screws up, they are accountable for it. I have never said otherwise. Given how sensitive police agencies are here, UW and Madison included, if the officers were wrong, they'll get hammered for it and the department sued.


Can you cite some examples of this? I seem to recall the "Patty" case taking several years and, even then, the apology was pretty lame and insincere. Did the officer in the patty case gets disciplined? suspended?

I've seen how long it takes the PFC to act against an officer and that is when the Chief wants them to act.


Sure, some officers fired from MPD in the recent past: Grogan, Henderson, Vandenbelt among several others that were forced to resign or be terminated. Those names are not released publicly.

The department is currently starting procedures to fire an officer but since I don't know if any info has been released publicly. Officers are also disciplined for minor policy violations such as being late for briefing, late reports, non department use of email and internet. Minor policy violations can result in 1 or 2 day suspensions without pay ($240 to $480 before taxes-think about that the next time you are 5 minutes late for work).

As far as I recall, there was no discipline in the Patty case because there were no violations of policy or law.

Of course the PFC acts when the Chief wants them to...he's the one who brings formal requests seeking termination. Citizens can also bring matters to the PFC if they want but it is rarely done.

The reason PFC hearings take so long is because it is a civilian panel which meets when the members are available. The City Attorney (or Assistant City Attorney), the Chief, the officer, his/her legal representative, the legal counsel to the PFC, and the 4(?) members of the PFC all have to come up with a time they can all meet, which is usually in the evening or a weekend for a couple of hours at a time. You expect quick action with due process involving testimony from opposing parties under that circumstance?

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Re: Re:

Postby Quid Pro Quo » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:10 pm

Ducatista wrote:
Quid Pro Quo wrote:If I'm dealing with some sadistic petty tyrant, he can usually get the sense that I can and will take his head off before the tazer clears the holster, and again, there should be no problem.

You may, in fact, be able to take a cop's head off. But I think people who make claims like "I could take someone's head off" are more likely to be the petty tyrants, and often unable to make good on their promises of supertoughguyness.



Actually, that was a figure of speach - I have never actually decapitated anyone. I do, however, understand the mechanics of doing so, and I probably have the upper-body and arm strength required to do it, although I doubt it would ever be necessary to go quite that far.

The ammusing thing about your post is that we know each other, and if you could see through the veil of anonymoty here, you would probably see my side of it quite clearly. Say hi to hubby for me.

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Re: Re:

Postby Quid Pro Quo » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:12 pm

Bland wrote:
Ducatista wrote:
Quid Pro Quo wrote:If I'm dealing with some sadistic petty tyrant, he can usually get the sense that I can and will take his head off before the tazer clears the holster, and again, there should be no problem.

You may, in fact, be able to take a cop's head off. But I think people who make claims like "I could take someone's head off" are more likely to be the petty tyrants, and often unable to make good on their promises of supertoughguyness.

Not to mention the fact that QPQ has apparently had enough encounters with law enforcement officers to have developed an entire "philosophy" about it.
I've been to hundreds of shows, bars, clubs, games and other gatherings in my 25 years as an adult and I've yet to be hassled by police or security, let alone nearly come to blows. And I recall attending many such events as a child too and yet I cannot remember my parents ever being involved in any such incidents either. I wonder why?


I never said anything about being hassled by security, nor did I say anything about being harrassed at shows, bars, clubs, or games. Let me know if you can come up with a nice try.

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Re: woman tasered at badger football game...

Postby Frank Booth » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:15 pm

Quid Pro Quo wrote:Actually, that was a figure of speach - I have never actually decapitated anyone. I do, however, understand the mechanics of doing so, and I probably have the upper-body and arm strength required to do it, although I doubt it would ever be necessary to go quite that far.

I don't know, I've found that decapitating people is often quite necessary. What the hell else am I supposed to be with my massive guns and totally ripped upper-body?

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Re: Re:

Postby Bland » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:19 pm

Quid Pro Quo wrote:I never said anything about being hassled by security, nor did I say anything about being harrassed at shows, bars, clubs, or games.
Then you've just been talking out yer ass, eh?
I mean, what did all this mean if not "I've had to deal with cops before?"
Quid Pro Quo wrote:If I'm dealing with an honest cop who is just doing his job, then there should be no problem. If I'm dealing with some sadistic petty tyrant, he can usually get the sense that I can and will take his head off before the tazer clears the holster, and again, there should be no problem. Since that philosophy has worked for almost 50 years, I see no reason to abandon it.


"Dealing with an honest cop" sounds to me like you've dealt with some reasonable cops.
"Dealing with some sadistic petty tyrant" sounds to me like you've dealt with some unreasonable cops.
"Worked for almost 50 years....." sounds to me like you've been dealing with cops of all stripes for 5 decades.

The only person giving the impression that you've had a lot of encounters with law enforcement is you. And if you haven't had these encounters, why on Earth should anyone listen to your "philosophy" on how to extricate yourself from them?

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Re: woman tasered at badger football game...

Postby Quid Pro Quo » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:34 pm

Frank Booth wrote:
Quid Pro Quo wrote:Actually, that was a figure of speach - I have never actually decapitated anyone. I do, however, understand the mechanics of doing so, and I probably have the upper-body and arm strength required to do it, although I doubt it would ever be necessary to go quite that far.

I don't know, I've found that decapitating people is often quite necessary. What the hell else am I supposed to be with my massive guns and totally ripped upper-body?


Actually, massive guns and a ripped upper body would probably make it more difficult to get the required grip and leverage.


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