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Chuck_Schick
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:38 pm

mrak wrote:Perhaps that's what you're doing wrong, pulsewidth?

Actually, seems more likely to me that PM's helmet is made of lead and that it's slowly leaching into his ... er ... brain.

Well, I guess I just explicated my way out of that explanation, huh?

pulsewidth modulation
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Postby pulsewidth modulation » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:58 pm

Damn, you kids aren't fun anymore. I get piled on; but the best you can toss out is a picture, apples vs. oranges comparisons, and statistics that have nothing to do with the original post.

Ya'll are gettin' slow.

Chuck_Schick
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:00 pm

pulsewidth modulation wrote:Ya'll are gettin' slow.

... said the garden slug to the puma.

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Postby TheBookPolice » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:10 pm

pulsewidth modulation wrote:Damn, you kids aren't fun anymore. I get piled on; but the best you can toss out is a picture, apples vs. oranges comparisons, and statistics that have nothing to do with the original post.

Ya'll are gettin' slow.


You really should dial back the tsk-tsks until you respond to all points levelled against you. Mine, for example.

Chuck_Schick
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:14 pm

TheBookPolice wrote:You really should dial back the tsk-tsks until you respond to all points levelled against you. Mine, for example.

Or one. Just once. Ever.

For example.

Henry Vilas
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Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:19 pm

Don't you get it? PM is a dogmatic libertarian (or is that a libertarian dogmatic) and he's dead set against any public expediture for direct health care. As for the 40 plus million without insurance, they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. In other words: root hog or die.

supereightsnate
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Postby supereightsnate » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:24 pm

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Spain, The Republic of China (Taiwan), and the United Kingdom are just some more countires with universal health care off the top of my head.

also, anyone who ever posts in the local music forum probably knows me personally. I'm about as anonymous as "kyle motor" and "waylan".

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Postby anton » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:06 am

supereightsnate wrote:Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Spain, The Republic of China (Taiwan), and the United Kingdom are just some more countires with universal health care off the top of my head.


Not without heavy taxes, though. In Finland the sales tax is somewhere around 22%. Gas is $7.00/gallon. Heavy tax penalties if you own a car. They have good public transportation, though. But, we're only talking about 5.5 million people.

But they STILL complain. (And they mention the long wait for a dentist in this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXV3DzKv68

doddles
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Postby doddles » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:28 pm

anton wrote:
supereightsnate wrote:Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Spain, The Republic of China (Taiwan), and the United Kingdom are just some more countires with universal health care off the top of my head.


Not without heavy taxes, though.
I've lived and worked in Australia, Switzerland, and the USA, and will shortly be going to live in the UK. My salary has ranged from below average to a somewhat above average. In none of the countries was I (or will I be - I have worked out my UK taxes in advance) been taxed overall more than I am in the USA. If I were earning a lot more, I would pay more tax. And there's the rub. If you're rich, you pay more tax in most of those countries. If you're poor to reasonably well off, you pay tax comparable to the USA.

It's also important to compare apples to apples. In Australia, for example, income tax includes health care, social security, retirement benefits, etc.

But they STILL complain. (And they mention the long wait for a dentist in this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXV3DzKv68
The grass is always greener, etc... People always complain, wherever they are.

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Postby eriedasch » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:31 pm

anton wrote:
supereightsnate wrote:Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Spain, The Republic of China (Taiwan), and the United Kingdom are just some more countires with universal health care off the top of my head.


Not without heavy taxes, though. In Finland the sales tax is somewhere around 22%. Gas is $7.00/gallon. Heavy tax penalties if you own a car. They have good public transportation, though. But, we're only talking about 5.5 million people.

But they STILL complain. (And they mention the long wait for a dentist in this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXV3DzKv68

I'll take that any day of the week over our current "for profit" healthcare system in this country. The reason why so many other countries have gone to a universal health care system that offers preventative care to ALL citizens is because it is more efficient and cheaper.

Should not take a medical genius to realize periodic checkups and pre-care is far cheaper than waiting until you are deathly ill and go to the emergency room.

Not to mention I have known people without health insurance that have done just that - gone to the emergency room as a last resort. First, they will not call your name to be checked in unless you first register. Next they will not really give the quality of care you need unless you can prove how you will pay for it. Need I go on about all the fraud, over charging, and price fixing by hospitals when you don't have a big HMO behind you keeping them honest? It is a known FACT that they charge people more who do not have insurance.

Furthermore it is extremely unfair to every U.S. company to have to provide overpriced health care for it's workers when all the competition for other countries is covered by respective governments at far cheaper costs.

Christ, even Cuba has universal health care.

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Postby eriedasch » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:43 pm

doddles wrote:I've lived and worked in Australia, Switzerland, and the USA, and will shortly be going to live in the UK. My salary has ranged from below average to a somewhat above average. In none of the countries was I (or will I be - I have worked out my UK taxes in advance) been taxed overall more than I am in the USA. If I were earning a lot more, I would pay more tax. And there's the rub. If you're rich, you pay more tax in most of those countries. If you're poor to reasonably well off, you pay tax comparable to the USA.

It's also important to compare apples to apples. In Australia, for example, income tax includes health care, social security, retirement benefits, etc.

Call me a loony socialist but it would not break my heart if Bill Gates, The Bush Family, the Cheneys, and most CEO's etc. making 7-8+ figures in annual salary got a pay cut in order to solve the health care crisis in this country.

pulsewidth modulation
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Postby pulsewidth modulation » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:05 pm

eriedasch wrote:Need I go on about all the fraud, over charging, and price fixing by hospitals when you don't have a big HMO behind you keeping them honest?


Hold on there sparky. These paper pushing middle men are the problem, not those who provide direct care. Ask yourself... Why isn't their a price list for common procedures on the walls of clinics? I've asked administrators this question before and they don't have a clue. Price fixing is institutional, and the "insurance" companies determine the price.

I'd really like to know why a doctor in Mexico can just set up a practice whenever they please while their American counterparts can only see people if they participate in a "network?" Fucking uncompetitive and lame!

Not to mention the cap on doctors the AMA lobbies congress about almost every day. Why would people favor a cap on the amount of doctors in the medical labor pool? Stupid...

What about liability? How many socialists on this board have already attacked doctors for not being perfect? There is about 30% of the price for care, mandated liability "insurance" placed upon doctors by the government. Why is all the risk placed upon the doctors and none on the patients? Ask a lawyer who pays dues to the Democratic Party. They will tell you... Follow the money.

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Postby anton » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:01 pm

eriedasch wrote:The reason why so many other countries have gone to a universal health care system that offers preventative care to ALL citizens is because it is more efficient and cheaper.


Do you really think that's a good thing? Picture the Post Office, IRS, or FEMA managing your health care.

Insurance companies exist to make money. Period. They will game the system to the fullest extent that society will allow.

Pharmaceutical companies exist to make money. Period. They will game the system to the fullest extent that society will allow.

Malpractice attorneys exist to make money. Period. They will game the system to the fullest extent that society will allow.

Physicians exist to cure disease. They will do all they can to save the lives of their patients, and they can do a great deal. Keep in mind that a really good ball player may hit the ball one in three tries. We expect physicians to be 100% effective in something that is far more complex and difficult.

The cost of medical care has been spread out over entire society, due to our insurance system. What we lack are financial controls. Normally, the control would be at the pocket of the consumer, but it hasn't yet worked that way, probably due to the incredible wealth of our nation. We're starting to see cracks though; massive numbers of uninsured (who the rest of us wind up paying for anyway).

There is no single villian, simply numerous forces acting in concert.

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Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:19 pm

anton wrote:Picture the Post Office ... managing your health care.

Sounds good to me.
Seriously, I pack and ship for a living and I've yet to understand any of the standard complaints levied against the post office. Let's see ... I've used their services on every single package I've sent (and every single payment I've received) since I started business in 1999. In that time, the grand total number of screwups I can trace to the P.O. is a whopping one. Literally. So what's the beef? If anyone knows of a better post office anywhere in the world, I'd like to hear about it (it's one of the few things that nobody will ever claim is better in Canada, that's for damn sure!)

As for the IRS and FEMA ... well ...

pulsewidth modulation
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Postby pulsewidth modulation » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:44 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:If anyone knows of a better post office anywhere in the world, I'd like to hear about it


UPS

I'm not going to rag on USPS. It's one of the only effective government services there is. Again, part of the reason it is decent is due to competition. Also, it is one of 4 major players. No monopolies, competitive markets, no problems...

I could only imagine if the government gained a monopoly on healthcare "access". We would be right back around to my original post; which has been completely ignored in favor of more of the same socialist "equal access" chanting.

To bad the health care industry doesn't work as efficiently as the shipping industry.


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