Tomato the Nazis...

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Should the Nazis be welcomed with a barrage of locally grown Tomatoes?

Yes
14
58%
No
10
42%
 
Total votes: 24

dtray2064
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Postby dtray2064 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:31 pm

BobArctor wrote:Hulk say not smash. Hulk right.
Since they aren't going to be ignored, take control of the focus. [/img]

Chuck_Schick
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:43 pm

dtray2064 wrote:Some people do not and have not had the liberty of ignoring groups that would like to murder their families. Is that a matter of free speech as many opponents of the counter-rally assert? Give me a break.

Correct me if I'm fucked, but there's a difference between opposing a counter-rally and opposing pitching rotten fruit at the ugly motherfuckers, is there not?

Give me a break, indeed. Freedom of assembly works both ways ... as does assault.

dtray2064
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Postby dtray2064 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:01 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:
dtray2064 wrote:Some people do not and have not had the liberty of ignoring groups that would like to murder their families. Is that a matter of free speech as many opponents of the counter-rally assert? Give me a break.

Correct me if I'm fucked, but there's a difference between opposing a counter-rally and opposing pitching rotten fruit at the ugly motherfuckers, is there not?

Give me a break, indeed. Freedom of assembly works both ways ... as does assault.


First of all, this thread isn't filled with serious debate on the tomato-throwing tactic. Neither was my post. Why bring it up?

Secondly, nobody has been advocating assault. And you clearly didn't catch my point. The debate has much less to do with any constitutional right than it does with defending the Madison community and showing, symbolically, that we as a city oppose racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, sexist and violent organizations.

I don't understand why, after all of the violence that has occurred and the hatred and violence that continues to confront billions of people daily, is there even a question that taking a strong stand against hate groups is a good idea. I understand that people are scared of confrontation and some would rather be smug in their living rooms knowing that they took the so-called high-road by avoiding the event altogether, but how does ignoring anything change anything? How does ignoring anything oppose anything? It doesn't. What's so high, mighty, progressive or effective with staying home?

The debate has its roots in history, it has its roots in hatred and violence and other very terrible and tangible events. Arguing over whether or not a HATE GROUP--not war protestors, not LGBT marchers fighting FOR their rights, but a group that seeks to take rights from others--has a right to assembly is simply unimportant at this stage.

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Postby el guante » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:01 pm

so lots of ideas here, some good, some entertaining, some not so good, but let's not lose sight of reality.

there IS going to be a counterprotest and it'll probably be a normal one (no themes, no hilarious ideas, no fancy choreography... unless one of you or someone else has planned something i don't know about). just a "go-to-hell-you-nazi-bastards" counterprotest with signs and chants.

so as madison residents, we can make the choice to show up and support the counterprotest, or not. i don't think that NOT showing up makes you a nazi supporter (as one flyer very unfortunately implied); there is a good debate to be had on the topic of counterprotests. but i, for one, agree with dtray.

this isn't about denying their right to free speech. it's about having a show of force for this community. it sucks that it takes nazis to make people want to hold an anti-racism, pro-immigrant rally, but again-- this is the reality on the ground.

i'm not worried about bolstering the nazis' ranks. they'll always be a fringe group, no matter how big or small our counterprotest is. what DOES worry me, however, is the idea of the more subtle hate groups (read: a number of ideological and political movements within our own government) becoming emboldened by the fact that people just don't care about this shit any more.

as concerned, responsible members of this community, we can make this rally less of a response to the nazis and more a proactive statement against racism, homophobia and anti-immigrant hysteria.

so i'll be there. hopefully the counterprotest will be big.

dtray2064
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Postby dtray2064 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:10 pm

I agree (naturally, since you initially agreed with me).

But it's important to note that we have a choice to send a message against hatred and discrimination by simply showing up to downtown Madison. My ancestors didn't have choices when they were captured as slaves. They didn't have choices when klan members and nazi groups lynched them. They didn't have choices when their homes were invaded with violence. They marched. They protested. They were brutalized during peaceful demonstrations. Right now, we are confronted with choices. Do we stay at home and ignore the threat? I say, "No." It makes me feel ill that the debate is coming less about rectifying a terrible and violent history of oppression and more about the rights of terror/hate groups.

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Postby Chuck_Schick » Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:52 pm

dtray2064 wrote:And you clearly didn't catch my point.

Oh I get it. But my point is that no one here should expect to have a serious debate under a thread entitled "Tomato the Nazis."

The discourse here has been largely retarded. Which is a shame because these hate groups are seriously ugly and dangerous.

As to whether or not I'll be at the rally ... I'm torn. I hate these fucks with a passion and tend to get dangerously elevated blood pressure when in the presence of something I detest so fiercely. Then there's the fact that opposition only fuels the hatred of these fuckers. I mean, y'all don't really believe that a counter protest is going to change one mind on the other side, do you? So is the intent to make a difference, or to make yourselves feel better? Seriously, I'm asking--not just trying to be an asshole. Because I'm not convinced it will accomplish either one. The ugly reality with fuckers like these who are so divorced from human compassion is that you're damned if you do and likewise otherwise.

Yes, this thing will get media play either way. But the bigger the spectacle, the broader the coverage is liable to be. Maybe coverage of a counter protest that dwarfs these racist mental dwarfs will be beneficial somehow. I honestly hope so.

But I wish people would approach this discussion without such flip suggestions as resorting to clownish behavior bordering on assault. Because this shit isn't a joke and the fact is, if you want to stamp out racism you have to do a lot more than just confront a few of the most vocal misguided individuals of the lot.

S'all I'm sayin'. More power to those of you who get out there. Ultimately, my sentiments are with you. Just don't do anything stupid.

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Postby dtray2064 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:18 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:
dtray2064 wrote:And you clearly didn't catch my point.

Then there's the fact that opposition only fuels the hatred of these fuckers. I mean, y'all don't really believe that a counter protest is going to change one mind on the other side, do you? So is the intent to make a difference, or to make yourselves feel better?


An overwhelming large counter-rally would not so much fuel their hatred as it would curb their influence. I'm not really concerned with fueling the hatred of a hate group because, well, they're a goddamn hate group-- they are a group based on hatred. How much hotter can the fire get, Chuck? By allowing them the space to spread their hatred unopposed by the local community, we send a message of complacency in the face of such hatred. Isn't being a strong community united under a policy of opposition to prejudice worth more than the blood pressures of neo-nazis? I don't understand the logic... of course a counter-protest will anger the nazi's. In 1998, a counter-protest angered the KKK so much that they called off their rally on the capital. Why base your political involvement on the anger of those who oppose you?

I honestly hope that you don't think the point of a counter-rally is to change the minds of Neo-Nazi's. That's ridiculous. What is the point of any demonstration? To show wide-scale support or opposition. An LGBT pride march isn't going to make Fred Phelps buy the 3rd season of Will and Grace on DVD, but it will rally supporters, create networks, inform those who haven't thought much of the cause and maybe influence policy-makers. I'm not proposing a sit-down debate with the NSM a la crossfire, nor am I advocating a brawl; I would just like Madisonians who oppose hatred to put their money where their mouths are and <i>oppose</i> hatred by joining forces with other like-minded citizens and sending a message of unity rather than of hate.

dtray2064
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Postby dtray2064 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:21 pm

And I believe Nick Nice was just trying to prompt discussion with the whole tomato idea. His hands are too precious to run the risk of damage-by-citric-acid.

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Postby nicknice » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:29 pm

dtray2064 wrote:And I believe Nick Nice was just trying to prompt discussion with the whole tomato idea. His hands are too precious to run the risk of damage-by-citric-acid.


Thank you! Finally someone got it. Now if I had a Tomato launcher then it would be a different story.
;)

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Postby cheetah_woman » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:19 pm

I'm undecided as to whether there should be a counter demonstration (with or without tomatoes) or a mass ignoring of the nazis. I guess I tend to fall on the ignore side, as I am loathe to give these idiots any of my attention. Yet I understand how some may feel that a counterprotest sends them a message that Madison doesn't agree with their agenda.

I had this awesome German teacher when I was in high school in the late 70s, who grew up in Germany during the Nazi era. I asked her if Hitler had ever come to her town and she said he showed up just once while running for president. The good citizens of Freiburg (our sister city) pelted Herr Hitler with rotten tomatoes and he was so freaked he never came back. So one could argue that throwing tomatoes at nazis is a time-honored tradition going back 75 years.

One more thing: did anyone see the TV thing about hate groups that profiled a pair of 14-year-old twins whose mom is a white nationalist and is raising her daughters to be good National Socialists? The girls have a rep as the "white power Olson twins" and have an album of hate songs out called Prussion Blue. This is seriously nuts.

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Postby nickled&dimed » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:10 pm

oh someone once posted about them before. expect a succession of raunchy suggestions to follow about the various ways these girls will disappoint their parents.

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Postby BobArctor » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:29 am

flatrock.com wrote: Even before they came into power, Nazis demoralised and discriminated against Jews whenever possible. In Goldsmith�s book, The Inextinguishable Symphony, the author relates how his father witnessed the performance of a Jewish piece being interrupted by a contingent of Nazis throwing eggs and tomatoes at the stage.


cheetah_woman wrote: I had this awesome German teacher when I was in high school in the late 70s, who grew up in Germany during the Nazi era. I asked her if Hitler had ever come to her town and she said he showed up just once while running for president. The good citizens of Freiburg (our sister city) pelted Herr Hitler with rotten tomatoes and he was so freaked he never came back. So one could argue that throwing tomatoes at nazis is a time-honored tradition going back 75 years.

It seems a very traditional German action to pelt a stage with tomatoes and eggs. I'm completely against engaging in physical violence with these clowns. It's a calculated part of their recruiting mechanism. They specifically appeal to disturbed young folks. Think Beavis and Butthead in black trenchcoats.

There isn't time to build a sub-sonic bowel disrupter cannon, so eggs and ripe tomatoes are the best idea yet.

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Postby Paco » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:01 am

Water bombs from the Capitol walkway cupola thing!

No matter how badly they are treated, it ain't gonna help their cause...they're still assholes.

I still like the turn your back on them with silence or everyone laughing at them ideas.

My prediction....18 Nazis, 300 cops, 800 counter-protestors and 5000 people with digital cameras wanting to get the perfect shot.

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Postby Chuck_Schick » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:37 am

dtray2064 wrote: ... of course a counter-protest will anger the nazi's.

It will? Amuse, maybe. You think these idiots do this crap thinking they're not going to encounter some flak? Hateful freaks feed off that shit.

Why base your political involvement on the anger of those who oppose you?

Not what I suggested at all.

I would just like Madisonians who oppose hatred to put their money where their mouths are and <i>oppose</i> hatred by joining forces with other like-minded citizens and sending a message of unity rather than of hate.

I think this assertion that if we don't show at the rally we're somehow complacent is absolute bullshit. Where have I heard this sort of "if you're not with us you're with them" horseshit before?

I put my money where my mouth is, pal. I donate to the Southern Poverty Law Center--the organization that runs Klan Watch. Maybe those of you concerned with "putting your money down" should sit down and cut a check when you're done marching.

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Postby BobArctor » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:57 am

Chuck_Schick wrote:
I put my money where my mouth is, pal. I donate to the Southern Poverty Law Center--the organization that runs Klan Watch. Maybe those of you concerned with "putting your money down" should sit down and cut a check when you're done marching.


Here's the link: http://www.splcenter.org/index.jsp

I've given my time. Before there was an internet, people all over the country fed reports and compared notes to Klanwatch to counter these scumbags. I've still got three file drawers of stuff on these guys from the seventies and eighties.

Listen to Chuck, send them a donation. Think of it as a virtual tomato.


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