Should a Confederate Flag be burned at the Nazi rally?

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Should we burn a Confederate flag?

Hell yeah, light that Southern Swastika up!
9
43%
Yes, and hire a drunk rugby team to piss it out
5
24%
No, I'm a moderate, just iron it on too high a setting.
1
5%
No, it might provoke the ten nazis present to kick all 900 of our asses.
2
10%
No, sell it to the Loitering Law advocates and spend the money on beer.
1
5%
No, the Fourth Reich won. Better suck up to them.
3
14%
 
Total votes: 21

Chuck_Schick
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Postby Chuck_Schick » Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:47 pm

Save a tomato. Kill a Klansman.

I mean ... as long as y'all want to highlight the situation and are willing to risk doing time to do so, why be so miserably fucking pussy about it?

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Just ask John Birch and the crew of The Maine...

Postby Marvell » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:56 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:Save a tomato. Kill a Klansman [...] as long as y'all want to highlight the situation and are willing to risk doing time to do so, why be so miserably fucking pussy about it?


That's not one of your better suggestions, CS.

Take it from me, folks - you really don't want to horst wessel the Klansmen.

That's how it all starts.

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Postby Woe Now » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:09 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:Save a tomato. Kill a Klansman.

I mean ... as long as y'all want to highlight the situation and are willing to risk doing time to do so, why be so miserably fucking pussy about it?


Chuckles, the only thing you are going to kill is that fifty-dollar bag of oregano that you scored on Allied Drive last night.

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Postby BobArctor » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:38 pm

(Offline for 36 hours. The curse of Microsoft is almost gone from my life.)

Wesmon, I've had those conversations and an surprised that Madison has dropped to third on most Blacks per capita in jail. Knew that.

Mike, A Confederate flag is absolutely appropriate to the situation. The historical Klan of the Reconstruction isn't as close to the current 'Invisible Empire' as they like to think. It's like two teams in the same league.

Henry, good link. Followed that case when it happened.

Chuck, I'm not with any threats against anyone on that level. If I say that shit as a former urban guerilla, it gets taken seriously. This is now.

Ned, You're still clueless. I'm not a Democrat. Your jibe is irrelevant. Will you be car-pooling in with the boys?

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Postby harrissimo » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:50 pm

Intead of burning that ugly flag I say burn a few NAZIs. They're full of shit so they should burn pretty good. After they get going good we can throw Jack's flag in the fire.

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Postby PaleoLiberal » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:53 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
PaleoLiberal wrote: Many of the American soldiers who fought against the Nazis in WWII had Confederate battle flags at home.

American neo-Nazis and the Klan have often worked together and share many of the same beliefs. An infamous example is the Greensboro massacre.
\

A couple of important points:

While the Klans and the American Nazis have worked together, and may even have overlap of members, these are seperate organizations.

More important, while the Confederate battle flag is used by the Klans, most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag are NOT Klansmen nor do they follow the Klan agenda. For some folks, the CSA battle flag symbolizes the South, or The Dukes of Hazzard or something else. I would hazzard a guess that most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag find the Klan objectionable. OTOH, the Nazi flag does not have a diverse possibility of symbolisms. It means one thing, and one thing only.


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Re: Just ask John Birch and the crew of The Maine...

Postby Chuck_Schick » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:00 pm

Marvell wrote:That's not one of your better suggestions, CS .... That's how it all starts.

Which was kind of my point. But apparently my satiric bent has doubled-back on itself like an anaconda with ulcerative colitis.

I mean, I'm so tired of all this bozoid Nazi talk I can't even keep my vigilante threads straight fer chrissakes.

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Postby BobArctor » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:33 pm

PaleoLiberal wrote: More important, while the Confederate battle flag is used by the Klans, most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag are NOT Klansmen nor do they follow the Klan agenda. For some folks, the CSA battle flag symbolizes the South, or The Dukes of Hazzard or something else. I would hazzard a guess that most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag find the Klan objectionable. OTOH, the Nazi flag does not have a diverse possibility of symbolisms. It means one thing, and one thing only.

Find me a garage sale with a nazi flag and I'll burn that instead.

PaleoLiberal, I'll respectfully disagree that the Southern Swastika means anything less than 'White Power' at this point. During an interview, I once asked the front man for the band Molly Hatchet if the prominent display of the flag at their shows caused problems. "Only if there's a bunch of n*****s in the audience" said Danny Joe Brown. Then the band beat me up for insulting the flag.

Tom Petty used to display it as a Southern pride affectation and dropped it. The meaning has drifted to where I don't believe it means anything less that a Klan banner. Maybe a local reporter should ask a few people displaying it. (If I do it, I'm wearing a cup this time.) It's fair game as much as if the person was wearing a white hooded robe.
For what it's worth, I was born in South Carolina.

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Postby PaleoLiberal » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:53 pm

BobArctor wrote:
PaleoLiberal wrote: More important, while the Confederate battle flag is used by the Klans, most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag are NOT Klansmen nor do they follow the Klan agenda. For some folks, the CSA battle flag symbolizes the South, or The Dukes of Hazzard or something else. I would hazzard a guess that most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag find the Klan objectionable. OTOH, the Nazi flag does not have a diverse possibility of symbolisms. It means one thing, and one thing only.

Find me a garage sale with a nazi flag and I'll burn that instead.

PaleoLiberal, I'll respectfully disagree that the Southern Swastika means anything less than 'White Power' at this point. During an interview, I once asked the front man for the band Molly Hatchet if the prominent display of the flag at their shows caused problems. "Only if there's a bunch of n*****s in the audience" said Danny Joe Brown. Then the band beat me up for insulting the flag.

Tom Petty used to display it as a Southern pride affectation and dropped it. The meaning has drifted to where I don't believe it means anything less that a Klan banner. It's fair game as much as if the person was wearing a white hooded robe.

It's OK for me to say that. I was born in South Carolina.



I was born in New York, but I grew up in the South. I am well aware of the racial connotations involved with the CSA symbols. Once, in the late 1960s, there was a big controversy in the town where I lived because the local university had decided to stop playing "Dixie" as the fight song at football games. Not long before the game, one of my father's students, a black guy, was shot by some rednecks passing through town who decided it would be fun to shoot a n******. It still makes me sick to think about that. My parents went to visit the student in the hospital. I was reading a Mad Magazine I had just bought, so I gave it to my parents to give to the student to maybe cheer him up a bit. Considering what a stingy SOB I was, that said a lot. So, trust me when I say I understand the white supremacy part of the CSA battle flag and the song "Dixie", etc.

You do seem to be aware of the Southern Pride connotations. So, I guess you and I will have to respectfully disagree. (And I do mean repsectfully. Your position is well thought out, and certainly not anti-South.) I say there is a lot of the Southern Pride connotations left, you say not. We have no way to prove which of us is correct. Maybe it's been too many years since I lived in the South, although I did spend almost a year in my old state in the mid 1990s, teaching at a different college.

I do remember one interesting incident. Two fraternaties, one black and one white, were preparing for a water gun contest on a hot Spring day. I overheard a conversation between two of the black frat brothers, as they prepared for an ambush:

Brother #1: "It's the blacks against the whites!"

Brother #2: "Isn't that ALWAYS the case?"



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Postby buckyor » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:58 pm

I actually appreciate those who display the confederate flag on their cars, homes, etc. It puts me on notice: "Mental defective. Proceed with caution."

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Postby Wesmon » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:58 pm

BobArctor wrote:
PaleoLiberal wrote: More important, while the Confederate battle flag is used by the Klans, most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag are NOT Klansmen nor do they follow the Klan agenda. For some folks, the CSA battle flag symbolizes the South, or The Dukes of Hazzard or something else. I would hazzard a guess that most of the folks who display the CSA battle flag find the Klan objectionable. OTOH, the Nazi flag does not have a diverse possibility of symbolisms. It means one thing, and one thing only.

Find me a garage sale with a nazi flag and I'll burn that instead.

PaleoLiberal, I'll respectfully disagree that the Southern Swastika means anything less than 'White Power' at this point. During an interview, I once asked the front man for the band Molly Hatchet if the prominent display of the flag at their shows caused problems. "Only if there's a bunch of n*****s in the audience" said Danny Joe Brown. Then the band beat me up for insulting the flag.

Tom Petty used to display it as a Southern pride affectation and dropped it. The meaning has drifted to where I don't believe it means anything less that a Klan banner. Maybe a local reporter should ask a few people displaying it. (If I do it, I'm wearing a cup this time.) It's fair game as much as if the person was wearing a white hooded robe.
For what it's worth, I was born in South Carolina.


Actually I am living in the deep south right now, and I see a lot of people displaying the confederate flag, I even know a few of em who do. From my understanding it is more of a redneck southern pride thing than a racist thing, though sometimes there is overlap there.

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Postby Handy Smurf » Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:12 pm

Mike S. wrote:(correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think the Ku Klux Klan (or the original CSA) even cares if somebody is of Polish or Czech descent, as long as they're not a recent immigrant.


Actually Mike, the Klan, especially in its most virulent form during the 1920s, was specifically anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic and anti-Jew in addition to being anti-African American. Membership at the time was limited to Protestant males -- no Micks, Dagos or Polacks would have been welcomed. You're right though; these days the Klan is open to whites of most any ethnicity. But membership remains minuscule compared to its heyday.

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Postby BobArctor » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:43 am

Wesmon wrote: Actually I am living in the deep south right now, and I see a lot of people displaying the confederate flag, I even know a few of em who do. From my understanding it is more of a redneck southern pride thing than a racist thing, though sometimes there is overlap there.

I wouldn't consider Madison to be a right wing city, but there sure is plenty of institutional racism in the city, far beyond any proposed loitering ordinance.

Did you recently move away from Madison?

buckyor wrote:I actually appreciate those who display the confederate flag on their cars, homes, etc. It puts me on notice: "Mental defective. Proceed with caution."


The "Southern Pride" excuse is pretty much bullshit. Take it from a SC native who has lived in Waco and Appalachia. That "Southern Pride" crap is what the old boys tell gullible Yankees. The Stars & Bars weren't trotted back out until the civil rights movement began to take hold. That flag is was never anything other than a Klan flag. Treating the owners of such flags as volitile mental defectives is a good policy.

Ned Flanders wrote: Why not start with George Wallace, Ernest Hollings, Robert Byrd and Poppa Gore?

Comic Relief, has a point.The lynch mob in my first post would have been 'yellow dog Democrats' every one. They hated Blacks as much as their descendents hate Greens. When he signed the Civil Rights Act, LBJ said "We've lost the South..."

The GOP moved right into the vacuum. They absorbed various splinter groups and adopted all the agenda items that brought in the racists. As of this year, the GOP has purchased Klan leader David Duke's national mailing list and is working it as their constituancy. George Lincoln Rockwell, the Nazi leader being celebrated by the nazis at this Saturday's rally, really was a staff member of the National Review magazine.

The Confederate flag is nothing less than the symbol of the Ku Klux Klan. The Klan is nothing less than a working caucus of the Republican Party. The proposed loitering law is in the finest tradition of 'White Citizen's Councils."

See you on the line, tommorrow.

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Postby Wesmon » Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:27 pm

BobArctor wrote:
Wesmon wrote: Actually I am living in the deep south right now, and I see a lot of people displaying the confederate flag, I even know a few of em who do. From my understanding it is more of a redneck southern pride thing than a racist thing, though sometimes there is overlap there.

I wouldn't consider Madison to be a right wing city, but there sure is plenty of institutional racism in the city, far beyond any proposed loitering ordinance.

Did you recently move away from Madison?



I moved here to Panama City, FL from Madison about a year ago. I still come to this forum cause I need intelligent conversation sometimes and it is very hard to find in this town.

Oh, and I know some people wopuld say Florida isn't really the south, and I thought so too before I moved here, but this area in the panhandle is very much the deep south. They locals here don't call it Lower Alabama for nothing. All gungo-ho support the troops, thump the bible and worship George W.


It's quite openly racist here too. For example, last year boot camp guards were caught on video beating a black kid to death, yet the local coroner listed the cause of death as sickle cell trait and everyone involved has either kept their jobs or been tranferred to new ones. No one has been charged with a crime and most of the people in this town think the kid who was murdered deserved what he got and admire the police who were involved.

link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lee_Anderson

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Postby BobArctor » Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:06 pm

Been through Panama City a few times. Here's a shot I took of a bad motel that I holed up in on a caper in Panama City Beach about ten years ago, It was used as an illustration for my "Road Dog" newspaper column in the late 90s. Parden the quality, It's a newsprint clipping, the original photo is likely buried in a storage locker.
Image
The Killer Beads headshop, of Panama City Beach, had a unit on the 1997 Lalopalooza tour and I was handling much of the glass pipes for vendors on some of those tours back then.

That is a scary redneck place to be sure. I went through the Atlanta airport a few months ago and was amazed at the standing booth to welcome soldiers coming in from babysitting the Iraqi Civil War. The traditional Klan realigned to the GOP after the civil rights movement kicked Jim Crow's butt. The Reaganites had links to international far-right groups through the World Anti-Communist League. They cross-polinated. The Klan and the nazis now work together. I totally stand by my contention that the Klan is just a caucus within the GOP.

Wesmon, you've been there a year? You have my sympathy. Don't buy the "Southern pride" dodge. It's a Klan flag. You described a pervasive rascist orientation of the community that accepts the Klan mindset as proper. You're a transplanted Yankee. The locals won't share many things with you.


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