Should a Confederate Flag be burned at the Nazi rally?

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Should we burn a Confederate flag?

Hell yeah, light that Southern Swastika up!
9
43%
Yes, and hire a drunk rugby team to piss it out
5
24%
No, I'm a moderate, just iron it on too high a setting.
1
5%
No, it might provoke the ten nazis present to kick all 900 of our asses.
2
10%
No, sell it to the Loitering Law advocates and spend the money on beer.
1
5%
No, the Fourth Reich won. Better suck up to them.
3
14%
 
Total votes: 21

BobArctor
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Should a Confederate Flag be burned at the Nazi rally?

Postby BobArctor » Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:29 pm

Found a Confederate flag in the free box at a garage sale recently. Grabbed it by mistake and was chagrinned to realize what it was at home.
Image

It would be a hoot to burn it in front of a cheering crowd. Shall we focus our attention on the institutional racism of the American Right?

Image
Loitering Law advocates and friends in Madison, WI, this century.

Image
Loitering Law rally in Mississipi, last century.

What's that hanging from a neighbors tree? Loiterers.

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Postby Dulouz » Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:42 pm

best. post. ever.

Wesmon
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Postby Wesmon » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:17 pm

Apparently this is all just a competition to see who the biggest attention whore is.

Neo-Nazis rally in Madison specifically because of the attention they know they will get. And I guess some people rally against them for the same reason, the need for attention.


Oh, and institutional racism is far from just a right or left thing. I wouldn't consider Madison to be a right wing city, but there sure is plenty of institutional racism in the city, far beyond any proposed loitering ordinance.

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Postby BobArctor » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:58 am

Wesmon wrote:Apparently this is all just a competition to see who the biggest attention whore is.

Actually, my MO is to do this sort of thing fairly annonymously. We sgouldn't let the outside freaks set the discussion agenda in our city. Their presence does focus attention on related issues.
Wesmon wrote:Oh, and institutional racism is far from just a right or left thing. I wouldn't consider Madison to be a right wing city, but there sure is plenty of institutional racism in the city, far beyond any proposed loitering ordinance.

Elaborate on that, please.

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Postby PaleoLiberal » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:25 pm

Wouldn't it make more sense to burn a Nazi flag at a Nazi rally, or else a Confederate battle flag at a Klan rally? Burning a Confederate battle flag at a Nazi rally isn't quite as stupid as, say, invading Iraq to punish al Queda, thouth.

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Postby PaleoLiberal » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:29 pm

BobArctor wrote:
Wesmon wrote:Apparently this is all just a competition to see who the biggest attention whore is.

Actually, my MO is to do this sort of thing fairly annonymously. We sgouldn't let the outside freaks set the discussion agenda in our city. Their presence does focus attention on related issues.
Wesmon wrote:Oh, and institutional racism is far from just a right or left thing. I wouldn't consider Madison to be a right wing city, but there sure is plenty of institutional racism in the city, far beyond any proposed loitering ordinance.

Elaborate on that, please.



Just ask one of your non-white friends. You'll get an earful. At least I did the last time I asked a non-white friend about racism in Wisconsin a few days ago.

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Postby Wesmon » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:20 pm

BobArctor wrote:
Wesmon wrote:Apparently this is all just a competition to see who the biggest attention whore is.

Actually, my MO is to do this sort of thing fairly annonymously. We sgouldn't let the outside freaks set the discussion agenda in our city. Their presence does focus attention on related issues.
Wesmon wrote:Oh, and institutional racism is far from just a right or left thing. I wouldn't consider Madison to be a right wing city, but there sure is plenty of institutional racism in the city, far beyond any proposed loitering ordinance.

Elaborate on that, please.


Well the most obvious example would be the study done by the UW back in 1999 showing that Dane county locks up a higher percentage of its blacks than any other county in WI. Add this to the fact that WI locks up a higher percentage of its blacks than any other state.


I have posted a link to this study a few different times on this forum. I will see if I can find it again and link it if I do find it.

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Postby Wesmon » Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:41 pm

Here's that study

http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~oliver/RACIAL/Reports/MayorReportRevSep01.pdf

I guess I was wrong about Dane county being the worst county in the state. Waukesha and Kenosha were ahead of Dane, which came in third. The study is a few years old but I don't see that things have really changed much since it was done.

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Postby Mike S. » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:54 am

It seems inaccurate to link the Nazis with Confederates. While they have virulent racism in common, I don't think it's all the same racism - for instance, the Nazis killed millions of Slavs who they said were a 'lower race', but (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think the Ku Klux Klan (or the original CSA) even cares if somebody is of Polish or Czech descent, as long as they're not a recent immigrant. Conversely, the Nazis had some weird thing going where they claimed fairly dark-skinned Tibetans were true Aryans based on facial measurements, which the Klan probably wouldn't be happy with. Now the KKK did have a "Black Band" running around killing Socialists in the 1920s-1930s which the Nazis would have approved of - I don't know if either party still bothers targeting "commies" today, though.

If you go deeper, the differences are severe. The Nazis are after all a fascist party, whereas the Confederates set up a democratic state similar to the U.S. but with a weaker federal government. This isn't the same thing! The Confederates never intended death camps per se, but endless lifetimes of slavery. The Nazis probably killed even more people faster than they originally intended to, but despite the revisionists' protests I think they had a fairly homicidal intention for their labor camps from the beginning - they weren't looking for generations of Jews, but just however much labor they could wring out of people on the way down to dying.

Maybe the distinction isn't important - X is bad, Y is bad. But I think saying X is Y is an abuse of history. Plus, there's a chance that the Nazis would just sit by and laugh - from what I've read on the Internet it sounds like none of them are on good terms with any of the others let alone the KKK (it was my thought that after the Oklahoma city bombings in 1996 that the FBI had laid into their groups with the same kind of stunts they had formerly reserved only for the left)

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Re: Should a Confederate Flag be burned at the Nazi rally?

Postby Ned Flanders » Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:48 am

BobArctor wrote:It would be a hoot to burn it in front of a cheering crowd. Shall we focus our attention on the institutional racism of the American Right?

If you were intellectually honest, you'd "focus" closer to home, Bo(o)b. Why not start with George Wallace, Ernest Hollings, Robert Byrd and Poppa Gore?

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Re: Should a Confederate Flag be burned at the Nazi rally?

Postby nevermore » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:07 am

Ned Flanders wrote:
BobArctor wrote:It would be a hoot to burn it in front of a cheering crowd. Shall we focus our attention on the institutional racism of the American Right?

If you were intellectually honest, you'd "focus" closer to home, Bo(o)b. Why not start with George Wallace, Ernest Hollings, Robert Byrd and Poppa Gore?

That's funny that you have to reach back into the grave to find two of your examples while the other two probably won't live to see 2008, when Macaca Allen will be the front-runner in the GOP Presidential Primary.

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Postby AlphaLiberal » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:25 am

This is actually a fun idea. Burn the Confederate flag and have a poster of Macaca Allen in the background. Good street theater, if that's your thing. It would certainly be controversial.

As far as the conflation of the Confederates and the neoNazi's, they've done that already, for years now. Not everyone in both camps would agree, but it's a useful comparison.

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Postby PaleoLiberal » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:32 am

AlphaLiberal wrote:This is actually a fun idea. Burn the Confederate flag and have a poster of Macaca Allen in the background. Good street theater, if that's your thing. It would certainly be controversial.

As far as the conflation of the Confederates and the neoNazi's, they've done that already, for years now. Not everyone in both camps would agree, but it's a useful comparison.



I tend to agree more with Mike S. The symbolism behind the Nazi flag and the Confederate battle flag are very different. There are plenty of folks who would save a Confederate battle flag who would rather burn a Nazi flag. Many of the American soldiers who fought against the Nazis in WWII had Confederate battle flags at home.


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Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:47 am

Mike S. wrote:Maybe the distinction isn't important - X is bad, Y is bad. But I think saying X is Y is an abuse of history.

Sez the guy who recently argued that modern Israelis and the Nazis were qualitatively equivalent. :roll:

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Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:47 pm

PaleoLiberal wrote: Many of the American soldiers who fought against the Nazis in WWII had Confederate battle flags at home.

American neo-Nazis and the Klan have often worked together and share many of the same beliefs. An infamous example is the Greensboro massacre.


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