Wilson st. project controversy

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?
narcoleptish
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Wilson st. project controversy

Postby narcoleptish » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:41 am

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/artic ... icle=41387

Welcome to life in a growing city. The lesson to be learned here is that when you're looking at a condo where the views are a big selling point, in a part of town that is seeing a lot of revitalization, and there is a vacant building right next door between you and another newer successful project, you had better consider the possibility of another building going up someday and ask the right questions of your building's developer.

A property owner can sell the Air Rights to the space above their building and a developer can buy those rights to protect the views they are charging a premium for in their own development.

Kenton Peters obviously didn't do this, whether out of ignorance or otherwise, and now he's relegated to making ridiculous comments such as this....

Peters also said that offering rental studios and one-bedroom apartments would create the kind of problems seen in the Allied Drive neighborhood, one of the city’s more troubled neighborhoods.

"As I look at the building proposed ... I can say to you that I think what you're proposing will be the Allied Drive of downtown in 10 years," Peters said.


....to try and make up for his own mistakes or short sightedness.


Marina resident Scott Henderson said that local condo residents are wary of added traffic and congestion at the location. Scarano admitted that the state building is an "eyesore," but said McGrath's project "is the wrong way to go."

"Your building reminds me of what my two-year-old grandson built with LEGO," another speaker said.


The "added traffic and congestion" argument is the most overused and overblown talking point in the Protester 101 handbook. How many people just moved into the 700 block of E wash? 400-500 at least. I haven't noticed any congestion around there.

I guess I don't blame these people for trying but they're argument is weak and their ire should be aimed more at Mr. Peters.

chichilo
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby chichilo » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:15 pm

Narcoleptish, great points about air rights. I don't think anybody, even those in the Marina, would disagree. What they seem to be saying is that the proposed building would be so large for the lot, with so many units (127) and commercial space, that people from each of the buildings would be looking at each other from 28' away (18' from the balconies). No one wins, and certainly not the many people in the proposed tower who will live "on Lake Monona" and look at... a blank wall (the back units in the lower floors) or right across to their neighbors' living room and bedrooms. Architecture, anyone?

Are claims about traffic ever correct? If so, this is one such case. The intersections of Butler, King, and Wilson cannot be compared with the the 700 block of W. Washington. Did you actually examine the issue or are you just talking from the top of your head? I invite you to do the former and see for yourself.

Bwis53
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby Bwis53 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:43 pm

Mr. Peters' "Allied Drive" remark smacks of racism. Unless it's low-income housing, I don't think he needs to worry about that. The prices for new studios and one bedroom rentals are crazy.

Stebben84
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:16 pm

chichilo wrote:No one wins, and certainly not the many people in the proposed tower who will live "on Lake Monona" and look at... a blank wall (the back units in the lower floors) or right across to their neighbors' living room and bedrooms. Architecture, anyone?


narcoleptish wrote:Welcome to life in a growing city.

chichilo
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby chichilo » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:00 pm

Narcoleptish, please don't get facts get in the way of ideology. According to the 2010 U.S. census, Madison was the 25th. most densely settled community in Wisconsin, behind such space gobblers as Shorewood (WI), West Allis, St. Francis, and 21 other megalopoli. The fact is, with its "whopping" population growth of 22 percent since 1990, Madison is still way less urban than what you'd expect in a capital city with a major university.

narcoleptish
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby narcoleptish » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:07 pm

I look out my living room window and there's my neighbor's living room, about 10 feet across his driveway. Sometimes we wave at each other. The bedrooms upstairs are the same way. My neighborhood is an original example of what "New Urbanism" strives to be.

Of course that's just off the top of my head so it probably doesn't mean shit. I didn't actually go out and measure.

Sorry to be snappy to a new member but I've lived here a long time and I've passed through said area a few thousand times and if you think that's a congested intersection..... I can only ask you how long you've been off the farm?

Stebben84
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:04 pm

narcoleptish wrote:I look out my living room window and there's my neighbor's living room, about 10 feet across his driveway. Sometimes we wave at each other.


I consider myself lucky. I have a second story so I get to see parts of my neighbors roof. If my neighbor ever tries to add on, I'll definitely be complaining to the city.

We're the 15th largest capital city and we're number 72 in America's fastest growing cities. Sure 72 isn't up there but considering there are around 19,000 cities in the US, I'd say that's some pretty substantial growth. We've added 7000 people to Madison proper in the last two years alone. This is not ideology, this is truth.

chichilo wrote:Madison is still way less urban than what you'd expect in a capital city with a major university.


Annapolis - U.S. Naval Academy
Nashville - Vanderbilt University
Atlanta - Georgia Institute of Technology, Georgia State University, Emory University
Lansing - Michigan State University
Boise - Boise State University
Madison - University of Wisconsin
Sacramento - Sacramento State University (Cal State - Sacramento)
Providence - Brown University, Providence College
Richmond - Virginia Commonwealth University
Phoenix - Arizona State University
Indianapolis - Butler University, IUPUI
Raleigh - N.C. State University
Austin - University of Texas
Tallahassee - Florida State University
Columbus - Ohio State University
Columbia - University of South Carolina
Boston - Harvard University, Boston College
Albany - SUNY Albany
Lincoln - University of Nebraska - Lincoln

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/general- ... z2kesyjAVx

Compared to a lot of these places, I would say we're more urban. Looking at the populations, Madison is pretty much within the mean average. Phoenix throws of any median average so I thought mean was the best and that is at about 265,000.

Welcome to the forum Chichilo.

chichilo
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby chichilo » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:24 pm

Thanks for the welcome, Stebben84, and thanks for making my point clearer. Most of the university towns (cities, really) you list are more densely settled than Madison, and many, as your statistics suggest, have been growing faster than us. Further, I bet that few if any of them would plan the downtown core with the urban density that the proposed E. Wilson building would create. Having lived in New York City--in Manhattan, actually--a part of my life (does that mean that my farm was Central Park, narcoleptish?), I know what that urban density is. If planned well, it can be terrific. If not, watch out.

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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby Ninja » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:53 pm

chichilo wrote:Narcoleptish, please don't get facts get in the way of ideology. According to the 2010 U.S. census, Madison was the 25th. most densely settled community in Wisconsin, behind such space gobblers as Shorewood (WI), West Allis, St. Francis, and 21 other megalopoli. The fact is, with its "whopping" population growth of 22 percent since 1990, Madison is still way less urban than what you'd expect in a capital city with a major university.


Just an FYI - you're not allowed to be even remotely critical of anything about Madison here. This town is an urban, sophisticated, competent, and totally not racist Paris of the Midwest and if you refuse to recognize it as such you will be attacked by insecure sycophants who have made "Madison resident" a huge part of their identity and self-esteem. You've been warned.

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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby talagaster » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:19 pm

The City of Madison murdered ninja's parents on the steps of a theatre when ninja was but a small child. Orphaned, left with only a loyal butler to raise him, ninja trained for years so he would be ready to strike fear into the heart of the City of Madison. Whether repainting street lanes or engaging in other forms of basic urban planning, ninja is ready to bring the harsh light of justice upon the City of Madison.

rabble
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby rabble » Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:49 pm

I wonder what "not allowed" means. Ninja is very obviously allowed to "be even remotely critical of anything about Madison."

Oh, wait. Maybe he means "and have everyone love me afterwards."

Because, well, disagreeing with Ninja means you're an insecure sycophant. And he ought to know.

Ninja
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby Ninja » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:00 pm

rabble wrote:I wonder what "not allowed" means. Ninja is very obviously allowed to "be even remotely critical of anything about Madison."

Oh, wait. Maybe he means "and have everyone love me afterwards."

Because, well, disagreeing with Ninja means you're an insecure sycophant. And he ought to know.


To be clear, I'm not interested in having anyone who would behave like that "love me," or even agree with me. Just making an observation about a unique element of Madison culture.

It's so sad that massive racism and incompetence are tolerated here because people are too deeply invested in it being a special place to acknowledge reality. Also sad that legitimate criticism, or even just less than flattering observations, immediately lead to the kind of rationalizations and spin that we see above, or, more often in my experience, just fingers jammed in ears and screams of "GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!"

Quite a place you've got here. Word is spreading:
http://socialistworker.org/2013/10/31/m ... -in-the-us

iwiw99
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby iwiw99 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:12 pm

Note that McGrath has conveniently left the adjacent/east side of the Marina blank of windows. That's 14 floors of glass windows that will be blocked from sun and privacy facing a 129 unit apartment building 18 feet away. just sayin'

snoqueen
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby snoqueen » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:30 pm

I gotta say, a buyer of a condo facing the space above that old vacant government building should have realized the space wasn't going to be there indefinitely. I know if I'd been looking to buy one of those condos, it definitely would have crossed my mind.

It's like buying a house next to a vacant lot. You know that lot can be built on at any time. You check to see what is the zoning and maybe make sure it's not zoned for a gas station, and your offer reflects the uncertainty.

The traffic and congestion thing is plain silly. It's a feature of living downtown. Anyway, I thought the whole idea behind downtown condos was walkability and leaving your car in the underground garage most of the time.

I don't think the condo people have any legitimate beef with Peters, and Peters doesn't owe them an apology or explanation. I agree with narco -- having another building close by is a part of urban living, and if you think air rights are so important you need to check it out before signing those mortgage papers.

If the owners of the affected Marina condos want to speak up at the various committee meetings asking for design adjustments to leave them with more space outside their balconies, they should do so with an attitude of respectful requests for negotiation, not entitlement. They aren't entitled to nothin'.

rabble
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Re: Wilson st. project controversy

Postby rabble » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:47 pm

Ninja wrote:It's so sad that massive racism and incompetence are tolerated here because people are too deeply invested in it being a special place to acknowledge reality. Also sad that legitimate criticism, or even just less than flattering observations, immediately lead to the kind of rationalizations and spin that we see above, or, more often in my experience, just fingers jammed in ears and screams of "GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT! GET OUT!"

Oh, drat. I was remotely critical of Ninja and he's punishing me for it. When will I learn it's not allowed?

Yes, Madison is certainly having some definite trouble with race issues. Therefore Ninja should be able to criticize everything about Madison and not be criticized himself.


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