North Sherman Avenue Proposal

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david cohen
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:11 pm

snoqueen wrote:You realize you're going straight to hell now, don't you?



At least I'm enjoying the ride! <insert Jerry Garcia guitar solo here>

snoqueen
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:59 pm

http://host.madison.com/where-are-madis ... f887a.html

That goes to a map showing Madison's 587 crashes involving a bicycle and at least one motor vehicle between May 15, 2008, and Aug. 13, 2013.

You can hover over the dots and get details for each location -- who was ticketed, injuries, etc.

It's easy to see Sherman Ave needs some improvement, and the data a year from now will show how well the realignment is working.

The worst parts of the city for bikes, however, are nearer campus.

And the safest parts, comparatively speaking, seem to be where a bike path takes bike traffic off the street grid and onto its own dedicated route, though individual bad intersections between the bike path and a car route weaken that pattern.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:07 am

snoqueen wrote:http://host.madison.com/where-are-madison-s-most-dangerous-places-for-bike-car/html_6acd0c00-1a62-11e3-af8d-001a4bcf887a.html

That goes to a map showing Madison's 587 crashes involving a bicycle and at least one motor vehicle between May 15, 2008, and Aug. 13, 2013.

You can hover over the dots and get details for each location -- who was ticketed, injuries, etc.

It's easy to see Sherman Ave needs some improvement, and the data a year from now will show how well the realignment is working.

The worst parts of the city for bikes, however, are nearer campus.

And the safest parts, comparatively speaking, seem to be where a bike path takes bike traffic off the street grid and onto its own dedicated route, though individual bad intersections between the bike path and a car route weaken that pattern.


Fourteen incidents over the course of 5 years. Why would you draw attention to the fact that there was no safety issue on Sherman when you're arguing that Sherman needed to be changed?

snoqueen
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:33 pm

I am drawing attention to the fact we have baseline data from which to determine, in a year or eighteen months, whether or not the reconfiguration improved bike safety.

I don't think the bike-car crash rate on Sherman is piddling, given that the rate on streets paralleled by a bike path is even lower. Look at parts of Monroe parallel the bike path, or at parts of Atwood parallel the bike path (except for that awful intersection by Monty's, where it crosses). At many intersections on both streets, the rate of crashes has been zero over the period under study.

For that reason I still wish we could locate a bike path to take bikes off Sherman, but the railroad seems not to want to cooperate.

I believe we should use data to address traffic-engineering problems, along with other types of input. And there's some data.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:42 pm

snoqueen wrote:I don't think the bike-car crash rate on Sherman is piddling, given that the rate on streets paralleled by a bike path is even lower.


Obviously there should be an acceptable number of bike accidents and we just deal with that. I'm wondering what the baseline is. Seems like 3 to 4 crashes a year is acceptable.

It does look like Sherman is on the higher end when you look at similar secondary streets outside of downtown.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:23 pm

For the umpteenth time, safety concerns on N Sherman involved more than simply recorded accidents with bikes. Pedestrian safety was an issue, whether there were actual collisions or not. I've only been driving this stretch of road regularly for less than two years. In that time, I've seen many close calls with pedestrians trying to cross the 4 lane madness.

Also, if bike usage goes up because of the new accomodations, simply comparing pre- and post-change incident numbers won't tell the whole story.

snoqueen
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:01 am

You're right about the pedestrian thing. Lines of paint really aren't worth much when four lanes of cars are charging at you. The islands ought to help some, and getting down to two lanes helps a lot.

Does anyone know if there are bike usage stats (not accident stats) from pre-reconfiguration?

If bike usage goes up and bike-involved crashes go down, that's super-excellent.

david cohen
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:35 am

So far, the only real negative I've seen with more bikes on Sherman is riders ignoring traffic laws. Primarily, this entails not stopping for the red light at Aberg. Foolish, but hey, I never heard of a car dying from hitting a bike. Now, I have seen 3 folks abreast in the bike lane, with the outer-most rider essentially in the traffic lane, but a lil toot of the horn remedies that. I agree that if rider numbers are up and car/bike accidents are down, it's a win - win.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:48 am

david cohen wrote:So far, the only real negative I've seen with more bikes on Sherman is riders ignoring traffic laws. Primarily, this entails not stopping for the red light at Aberg.

I've seen this several times at the Aberg intersection recently, as well. However, this was also a problem before the reconfiguration. Then it seemed to be only riders on the southbound sidewalk that blew through. Now it's also those on the street. Do they feel emboldened because of their new lane?

I haven't seen it from northbound riders, as they are crossing the path of traffic using Aberg. Those heading south are generally only dealing with traffic into and from that apartment complex on the west side of N Sherman. Regardless, it's a collision waiting to happen, and it likely won't be the fault of a driver.

It's these riders that give bicyclists a bad reputation, IMO. If you want to share the road, you must also comply with the rules of the road.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:38 pm

I've seen it in both directions but yesterday I saw 2 guys heading north blow the light and almost get creamed from traffic turning onto Sherman from Aberg. I was literally ready to throw it in park and jump out it was such a close call. People routinely flaunted the red light there heading south before the bike lanes; now that they do so heading north across Aberg traffic says to me that they feel emboldened...not for long!

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Gerth » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:04 pm

I really wish the skate board dude would not go right down the middle lane for half the length of Sherman. Or at least wear a helmet to so he'll be easier to clean up when his time comes.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby fennel » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:38 pm

david cohen wrote:People routinely flaunted the red light there heading south before the bike lanes...

Flaunt ≠ flout. But yeah, I know what you mean.

I'm fine with flouting some traffic laws that date to the days when bikes weren't a consideration. But it needs to be done carefully and considerately.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:29 pm

thanks man- clearly i wasn't flaunting my vocabulary skills when I used the term! As a regular flouter of minor traffic laws, my humble apology:)

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby sylvie » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:09 am

Looks like Frugal Muse in the Northgate Shopping Center is going to close. Don't know why. :(

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Bad Gradger » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:22 am

sylvie wrote:Looks like Frugal Muse in the Northgate Shopping Center is going to close. Don't know why. :(

It's tough for bookstores generally. With how active they've been in opposing the street reconfiguration I'm sure they saw it as the last straw. On the other hand, the store's been running on minimal staff for well over a year - every time I've stopped in there, the store's been a bit more disorganized and messy.

It's the old "but for" conundrum: Would Frugal Muse stay open but for the lane reconfiguration? Without them volunteering to open their books it's impossible to say.


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