North Sherman Avenue Proposal

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Bad Gradger
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Bad Gradger » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:47 am

snoqueen wrote:Monroe St., Willy St, and the Atwood/Schenk's area come to mind.

Willy/Atwood is a perfect example of the problem with Ninja's fundamental premise. The commercial renaissance in that corridor had far less to do with the number of cars driving through than the growing wealth of the neighborhood. If the connection was as simple as the cars=prosperity crowd maintains, then East Wash ought to be more than a collection of gas stations and dingy strip malls.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:26 am

In today's Cap Times, Steven Elbow quotes Dave Cieslewicz on why the north side bike path became impossible to locate:

For years the city has pursued development of the Sherman Flyer [bike] route, which requires a link along the railroad corridor. But the Union Pacific Railroad, which owns the property, isn’t interested.

“We would send them letters because we were interested in some of the right-of-way off Fordem, and we’d get no response. Nothing,” says Cieslewicz, who adds that dealing with the railroads “is just a nightmare. They’re impossible on every issue, not just the bike issue.”


Nice being a private citizen who can tell the story the way it happened, instead of a public official who has to tiptoe around it in case they need to get along with the railroad later on for some reason.

Whole article is worth reading on the topic of developing a bike culture and bike infrastructure in Madison.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby minicat » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:00 am

barney wrote:
minicat wrote:
Ninja wrote:
Seriously? Are you 10 years old? Have you been completely unable to comprehend what either of us have been talking about on this entire thread? Grow up.

I did like your line about gang initiations, though. That one's an 8 on style points.


Uh, that was me. And maybe I forgot the sarcasm tag?


Yeah, I caught the sarcasm. Sorry I credited your funny to Ninja, I was skimming too fast and trying to give him credit for some humor, at least.

Went through last night at a little after 5 pm, all the way up Fordem to Northport; even though the painting trucks were still out, no backups/problems. I did see someone in an SUV cruising down the center lane for awhile, but that driver moved to the correct lane once they hit the stretch with some actual directions already painted correctly.

Similar this morning.

In response to David's concerns about safety: Whether it will turn out to be that way or not, I will say it feels much safer to ride Sherman in the current configuration than before. Two full lanes going the same way should theoretically be safer for bikes, but in practice what tended to happen in the four lane configuration is that drivers in the right lane would not change lanes or move over at all for bikes ... causing a delightful surprise of someone speeding by you about 2 inches away. At least now everyone should know where they are supposed to be; as for bikers or cars wandering out of their designated lanes, there's no configuration of a roadway that can fix inattentive drivers.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:35 am

That's cool Minicat. Out of curiosity, what is the acceptable method for a bicyclist who wants to pass another bicyclist in the bike lane when there is a steady stream of traffic in the adjacent car lane? Do you just hand signal and slide out into traffic? Yield to any cars until there is a break? Verbally notify the slower bicyclist that you are passing on the left and both of you stay in the bike lane? I see this being an issue during commuting times when both bike and vehicle lanes are more crowded and it would be nice if everyone knew how this scenario works- and so I can explain it to my pair of new drivers:)

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:42 am

By law, any bicyclist who deviates from the bike lane must yield to traffic approaching from behind (no different than a car deviating from a traffic lane). In your scenario, I would say that the bike would need to wait for a break in traffic before passing unless there was sufficient space to ride two abreast (albeit momentarily) within the bike lane.
The notification of the biker-to-be-passed may help with that, but I think the onus would be on the passer to remain in the bike lane (or yield if deviating), and not on the passee to yield sufficient space within the lane.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:53 am

david cohen wrote:Out of curiosity, what is the acceptable method for a bicyclist who wants to pass another bicyclist in the bike lane when there is a steady stream of traffic in the adjacent car lane?


For me, I wait until there is no car traffic behind me, call out to the cyclist, "on your left" then pass and be on my merry way. It's pretty uncomplicated. There may be times when the traffic is heavy and this may not be an option. In that case, deal with it and stay behind a slow bike. It happens to me with cars all the time. I never just signal and cut into traffic. I can't say others won't do it either, but people are dipshits no matter where the bike lanes are.

jman111 wrote:but I think the onus would be on the passer to remain in the bike lane (or yield if deviating), and not on the passee to yield sufficient space within the lane.


If I notice someone passing me, I will try to get over a bit if there is room. I ride E. Wash and they have some pretty wide bike lanes. I dunno what they are like on Sherman. Hope they're wider than E. Johnson. Man do those suck.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:55 am

Bike lanes are 4ft plus the "gutter" (add'l 2 ft).

Stebben84
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:59 am

What's the "gutter"?

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby sylvie » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:06 pm

snoqueen said:
"I think the prediction of the death of Sherman Ave business life show a misunderstanding of how a healthy small-retail and service-type businesses (bars, restaurants, etc) work on a through street in a largely residential area.

Monroe St., Willy St, and the Atwood/Schenk's area come to mind.
We'll see, won't we? "

But they don't have bike lanes on them, do they? - or not directly. Those streets also have unique shops and restaurants; most of those near Sherman are fairly conventional except for Frugal Muse, Banzo, etc, so I can see where the owner of the UPS store (mentioned on Madison.com last spring ) might worry. And although the north side is changing as housing prices increase in more popular areas, I think the customer base is still pretty conventional.

How many bicyclists are going to transport large packages to the Northgate UPS store or carry home a Falbo brothers pizza in their backpacks? (oh I know some wag will post that he's done it).

As an aside, it really would help if bicyclists made themselves more visible after dark. Those little twinkly lights don't help much. Just last night I passed one with what seemed like a search light on the front of his bike but glancing in the rear-view mirror as I passed - he was totally dark.

And now when the lights turn red at N. Sherman intersections, the line of cars stopped in the new single lane reminds one of the backup waiting for a train.

ps - to "david" - living right on Sherman as I do, I would really not like to have anymore of my front yard taken to widen the street.

"Well, we shall see, won't we. " If it works I will be happy especially if the commuter traffic shifts to Packers.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby barney » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:08 pm

Stebben84 wrote:What's the "gutter"?

The gutter is the chunk of concrete that's attached to the curb along which storm water (usually) flows.

I don't think they're done with the painting/signage yet, so the confusion should dissipate. I took North Thompson drive towards the Lien Rd roundabout last night and noticed there are big 'ol arrows painted in the center turn lane, as well as giant signs saying what that lane is for. I assume they have similar plans for Sherman Ave.

Again, it's been two days, folks. I'm amazed they've gotten as much done as they have ;)

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby barney » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:12 pm

sylvie wrote:
How many bicyclists are going to transport large packages to the Northgate UPS store or carry home a Falbo brothers pizza in their backpacks? (oh I know some wag will post that he's done it).



Holy. Christ. They did not, in fact, turn Sherman Avenue in to a pedestrian/bike path. Turns out you can still drive on it. No one is not going to go pick up a pizza because of a bike lane.

Here's the thing a lot of people are forgetting: studies (which I am not going to spend time and energy looking up) have shown that most people do their business within a very small radius of their own homes and/or places of employment. That ain't gonna change, guys. Now, if some of the cash stores go under, that wouldn't be all bad.....

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby minicat » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:32 pm

barney wrote:
Again, it's been two days, folks. I'm amazed they've gotten as much done as they have ;)


yeah, they are trucking on it... I was surprised how much was done the first day.

As far as passing in the bike lane ... personally, I just stay behind whoever's in front until it's safe to go around. If you're the person who wants to pass, it's your responsibility to only do it when it's safe for everyone. If that never develops, fine ... coasting is a good rest. The Sherman lanes are narrow enough I'd hope most bikers will be non-aggressive and follow that logic.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:44 pm

It is interesting to me that all the animosity from ninjy and sylvie is towards the city, the bikers, and anyone who had or might have had a hand in the project EXCEPT for the railroad which could have easily made the whole thing unnecessary.

snoqueen wrote:In today's Cap Times, Steven Elbow quotes Dave Cieslewicz on why the north side bike path became impossible to locate:

For years the city has pursued development of the Sherman Flyer [bike] route, which requires a link along the railroad corridor. But the Union Pacific Railroad, which owns the property, isn’t interested.

“We would send them letters because we were interested in some of the right-of-way off Fordem, and we’d get no response. Nothing,” says Cieslewicz, who adds that dealing with the railroads “is just a nightmare. They’re impossible on every issue, not just the bike issue.”


Nice being a private citizen who can tell the story the way it happened, instead of a public official who has to tiptoe around it in case they need to get along with the railroad later on for some reason.

Whole article is worth reading on the topic of developing a bike culture and bike infrastructure in Madison.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby sylvie » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:46 pm

Barney wrote - "Holy. Christ. They did not, in fact, turn Sherman Avenue in to a pedestrian/bike path. Turns out you can still drive on it. No one is not going to go pick up a pizza because of a bike lane."

I did see several cars having a difficult time getting out in the newly compressed northbound lane. Some were trying to get over to the passing lane so they could turn left. It all looked rather night-marish and as all those driving single-file were in no mood to let let anyone out. Let's hope the customers learn to get over to Aberg and turn with the light.

As a parting shot, I want to answer someone who said all homeowners were in favor of this. I've been a homeowner on N. Sherman since 1995 and no one ever asked me anything about this. I am still willing to give this a chance but the way it was brought about leaves a bad taste.

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:57 pm

sylvie wrote: I've been a homeowner on N. Sherman since 1995 and no one ever asked me anything about this.


Were you expecting them to go door to door and do a survey. If that's the case shouldn't they do that for everyone in the city considering Sherman belongs to ALL of us.

Seems as though, since there wasn't a special news program all about Sherman losing a lane, it's a plot by someone somewhere to destroy the north side. Oh, and personally, I don't consider Sherman a "main" artery in the city. I'd say a secondary artery. Just my opinion though.


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