What is up with King Street Lately?

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Should Club Majestic be closed or punished?

Yes
22
52%
No
20
48%
 
Total votes: 42

supaunknown
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Postby supaunknown » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:53 am

Ruggedman wrote:
I wrote:The Majestic appears to have a decent screening process & security for what goes on inside their club. They're drawing huge crowds to these hip-hop shows, so you wanna knock 'em for being a successful business that supplies an obviously desirous commodity?

Yes it appears to be good but it isn't. And no I don't want to knock them for providing a "desirous commodity". I knock them for providing a DANGEROUS commodity.

Huh? You mean music? Dancing? Oh, you must mean the booze, right? What else could you possibly be getting at? Whatever. Keep flappin' complaints without offering any potential solutions. You want better security? OK, specifically how so? Thanks, you're a lot of help.
Dulouz wrote:What happens outside the club though is outside the club. It is not, like Hilltop, a private parking lot. It is a public street. As a result, the security staff of the Majestic have little or no authority to act outside of the club. If bouncers remove someone from inside the club it is "security", if bouncers remove someone from the street is is "vigilante-ism" and maybe a host of other civil and criminal charges.

Exactamundo.

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Postby eastside » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 pm

Dulouz wrote:
regnad_kcin wrote:
eastside wrote:In relatively recent history the KK was temporarily closed by the ALRC due to underage patrons. The Paramount / R&R closed after violent incidents, as did Club Hilltopp. As long as Majestic skates by on the technicality that what goes on happens outside their club-- I guess they don't feel at all obligated to convince customers to respect their their neighbors and fellow citizens after hours. It might take a temporary injunction to change their tune.

Why isn't there more pressure on Majestic? You can bet almost any other bar or venue would be more than willing to cooperate with police and city council on a matter such as this. Is Schiavo really that slimy?


There is a lot of pressure on the Majestic. The reality is that Schiavo, far from being slimy, has bent over backwards to work with the police and the city. He has voluntarily added conditions to his license, created a state of the art security system, etc. The other clubs were closed down because they violated the law and city ordinances. The Majestic is not doing that. The city can't just take somebody's property (business) for any reason. It needs specifics. For those unfamiliar with the concept, it is called "due process".

What happens outside the club though is outside the club. It is not, like Hilltop, a private parking lot. It is a public street. As a result, the security staff of the Majestic have little or no authority to act outside of the club. If bouncers remove someone from inside the club it is "security", if bouncers remove someone from the street is is "vigilante-ism" and maybe a host of other civil and criminal charges.

Just a note that the top quote was not originally a quote of me. I haven't suggested injunctions or anything of the sort. To comment on your "vigilante-ism" issue, I don't see why this is a problem if a club knows its patrons. If the owners of the Orpheum, Cardinal, Inferno, Nat Spil, or any other place I like to go asked me to leave the front of a club because of problems that may have an impact on their licenses or businesses, I would not only leave, but encourage the people I know to leave.

If people like your events, they probably have some loyalty to the venue or promoter. Why not use that loyalty to lessen the impact on the neighborhood. Don't they care? Do they have an adversarial relationship with their patron's? If so, why?

No one has to go Clint Eastwood to solve this problem. All that needs to happen is for people to go home after the bar closes. The Majestic should be able to encourage that with non-coercive methods.

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Postby spanky » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:07 pm

dave esmond wrote:It's the large number of black people mingling in the street that seems to be freaking people out.


Absolutely, unequivocally untrue; as I have stated before, I couldn�t give a rat�s ass what kind of music is being played at the Majestic, I don�t care what brand of clothing their customers wear, and I certanly couldn't care less what color of skin their patrons have.

I care that their clientele is shooting and stabbing people in our downtown, and I also care that the owners of the Majestic are pointing fingers at the cops denying responsibility.

dave esmond wrote:ONE of 'em. ONE, caused a problem. Would most people have even noticed it if the other 499 had just gone home like white people do? this year. Weed out the bad apples and stop being afraid of the whole tree.

Quit foisting your seemingly racist p.o.v. on the rest of us.

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Postby dave esmond » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:24 pm

spanky wrote:I care that their clientele is shooting and stabbing people in our downtown, and I also care that the owners of the Majestic are pointing fingers at the cops denying responsibility.


Do you worry about the KK's clientele? What about the clientle of the Aliant Energy Centers'? What about the library? Have those establishments taklen 100% responsibility like you want the Majestic to take? What specificly do you want the Majestic to say or do?

I care about the shooting and stabbings also. I'm just not ready to blame anyone other then the people who did it. The Majestic could go away today and the PEOPLE doing the shooting and stabbing would go somewhere else. Or do you believe they'd be peacefull church goers if the Majestic just went away?



The Majestic has a role to play. Of course. So do the Madison Police. But mostly let's worry about getting anyone who'd shot or stab someone off the street, not just move to anotehr street. Got any ideas on how we do that?

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Postby spanky » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:41 pm

dave esmond wrote:Who's denying they're not A factor? Not me. Not the Majestic.


Actually, the Majestic is denying it, perhaps you haven't read the paper.

dave esmond wrote:But I ask again what's the "obvious soulution"

Limits on operating hours,
Limits on capacity,
Staggered closing, liquor sales, music ending times,
Improved Police Response,
Other?

dave esmond wrote:500 drunks on to the street. And ONE of 'em stabs someone.


This continued misrepresentation is the "blind eye" I am speaking of - there have been two incidents of gunfire and a stabbing within 10 days on top of continued fights and property destruction for months. It is not a solitary incident!

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Postby dave esmond » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:18 pm

spanky wrote:Actually, the Majestic is denying it, perhaps you haven't read the paper.


Article please. I see them asking for help. I don't see 'em denying they have no responsibility.

at the same time I read the reports in the paper from Friday night. They were flat out wrong. Were you down there at 2:20 am?


Limits on operating hours,
Limits on capacity,
Staggered closing, liquor sales, music ending times,
Improved Police Response,
Other?


How do any of those keep the bad guys out? Not that they're bad ideas I guess, but I fail to see how they help, except the improved Police response. Are you saying a stabbing at 11pm is better then one at 2am. Or that one bad actor out of 200 is better then one out of 500?

It is not a solitary incident!


It was on Friday night. No property damage. 1 incident.

3 total violent incidents in 10 days is HORRIBLE. But why does that make you afraid of the entire clientele of the Majestic? I'll say it again I've seen a least one fist fight at every Brewers game I've ever been too. Should I be keeping a running tab, or see them as seperate bad incidents that need to be dealt with as they happen? Why a running tab on King and not at Miller park? Yes, yes, yes shootings and stabbings are worse then fistfights. But you're counting the fistfights and property damage on King so they still count.



No blind eye here. I want the situations dealt with. I just want 'em to deal with 'em the same way they would if they happened anywhere else in the city. I'm even willing to admit this area of town is one of the worst this month. Wait 'til the students come back and we'll have more bad places to deal with. If we don't learn how to deal with these issues here and now it's only gonna get worse in the futrure, it'll be somewhere else, but it'll be the same problems.

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Postby TAsunder » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:35 pm

Alliant Energy Center? WTF. I don't remember the last time I wanted to dine, socialize, or do anything really at a place within a few blocks of the alliant energy center. On the other hand, I don't really have any desire to be at the dane on a saturday night anymore.

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Postby juanton » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:43 pm

dave esmond wrote:It was on Friday night. No property damage. 1 incident.


It was actually on Saturday night Dave. Not the same night as Pupy's show at The King Club.

And for the record, you are really stretching it with your comments about us club blamers being afraid of interacting with black people. WTF? That's borderline crass in my book. Your over generalization is just as bad as folks saying the entire mob/crowd is violent.

My suggestion for solving the problem: drop the thug inspired hip hop.

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Postby supaunknown » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:51 pm

dave esmond wrote:It's becomg quite clear to me that Madison does not know how to deal with large crowds (see Halloween, Mifflin block party, etc) and really, really does not know how to deal with black people. There I said it. Finally Madison has more then a few black rersidents and guess what? They don't act just like white people. For instance after they leave a club they don't all wander off alone to their own cars and leave. They hang, they mingle, they stop their cars in the middle of the road, they holler at friends across the street. In other words they do things that make white people uncomfortable, maybe even scared.

Part of me was laughing, part of me was cringing ...

You're right about (at least) one thing: Madison is awful at controlling large crowds, especially since the comedy team of Dave & Noble took charge.

Your comments reminded me of these (in)famous speech excerpts by #92:

"White people were blessed with the gift of structure and organization. You guys do a good job of building businesses and things of that nature and you know how to tap into money pretty much better than a lot of people do around the world."

"Hispanics are gifted in family structure. You can see a Hispanic person and they can put 20 or 30 people in one home. They were gifted in the family structure."

"When you look at the Asians, the Asian is very gifted in creation, creativity and inventions. If you go to Japan or any Asian country, they can turn a television into a watch. They're very creative. And you look at the Indians, they have been very gifted in the spirituality."

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Postby juanton » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:54 pm

supaunknown wrote:Your comments reminded me of these (in)famous speech excerpts by #92:

"White people were blessed with the gift of structure and organization. You guys do a good job of building businesses and things of that nature and you know how to tap into money pretty much better than a lot of people do around the world."

"Hispanics are gifted in family structure. You can see a Hispanic person and they can put 20 or 30 people in one home. They were gifted in the family structure."

"When you look at the Asians, the Asian is very gifted in creation, creativity and inventions. If you go to Japan or any Asian country, they can turn a television into a watch. They're very creative. And you look at the Indians, they have been very gifted in the spirituality."


I guess I don't get it? Irony? Do you support these stereotypes?

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Postby supaunknown » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:10 pm

juanton wrote:
supaunknown wrote:Your comments reminded me of these (in)famous speech excerpts by #92:

"White people were blessed with the gift of structure and organization. You guys do a good job of building businesses and things of that nature and you know how to tap into money pretty much better than a lot of people do around the world."

"Hispanics are gifted in family structure. You can see a Hispanic person and they can put 20 or 30 people in one home. They were gifted in the family structure."

"When you look at the Asians, the Asian is very gifted in creation, creativity and inventions. If you go to Japan or any Asian country, they can turn a television into a watch. They're very creative. And you look at the Indians, they have been very gifted in the spirituality."


I guess I don't get it? Irony? Do you support these stereotypes?

Reggie's comments were over-the-top ridiculous. Dave's were too, though to a lesser degree. Do I support these stereotypes? Only for sitcoms and Wayan's brothers movies.

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Postby juanton » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:11 pm

supaunknown wrote:Reggie's comments were over-the-top ridiculous. Dave's were too, though to a lesser degree. Do I support these stereotypes? Only for sitcoms and Wayan's brothers movies.


Nice :wink:

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Postby dave esmond » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:19 pm

juanton wrote:
dave esmond wrote:It was on Friday night. No property damage. 1 incident.


It was actually on Saturday night Dave. Not the same night as Pupy's show at The King Club.



Saturday morning. 2:20am Is what I read in the paper. I assume that was the ambulance and Firetruck I saw.

If it was Sat night/Sunday morning then there wasn't any problem Friday night.

And for the record, you are really stretching it with your comments about us club blamers being afraid of interacting with black people. WTF? That's borderline crass in my book. Your over generalization is just as bad as folks saying the entire mob/crowd is violent.


Point taken. This is probably why I shouldn't even try and make this point online, it's too easy to not come across the way I want.

You know what? You and Supa are right. I over generalized and I look like a bit of an ass for doing so. I'm sorry.

How about......some white people in Madison seem uncomfortable with the way some black people interact with each other. And that I think this uncomfortableness seems to result in a different reaction to events that take place depending on the race of the noviolent crowd that surrounds an event.

My for examples?

Stabbing outside KK. Nothing in the paper.

The stabbing last weekend. Headline reads, "Violence Rocks King Street Again". The first line fo the article reads. "For the second weekend in a row, chaos and violence erupted at bar time in the 100 block of King Street, where police dispersed a large crowd amid several fights and disturbances including a stabbing." What I saw with my own eyes couldn't be called "chaos", it was large group of mostly black people who were hanging out and talking loudly. No violence, not "several fights". All I can go on is what I saw, and how it was reported.



Screw it, I'm just gonna look more retarded. I'll explain myself in person if you want.

Look I agreed with you and other people who want to blame the clubs just a little while ago. At this point tho' I'd rather crack down on the trouble makers and not just the club. Crack down on the clubs and the trouble makers still exist, just somewhere else. Crack down on the trouble makers and the 99% of the club goers who aren't causing touble can enjoy the club.
Last edited by dave esmond on Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TAsunder
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Postby TAsunder » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:21 pm

Yeah, if we can get rid of the bad people, then the bad things they do won't be an issue. And if a frog had wings it wouldn't have to hop on its butt.

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Postby @wood » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:40 pm

Fear will ruin this country. So many are afraid- owners, patrons, citizens, and the press is playing it up. Alders, who ride with the wind, are tired of getting phone calls- eventually they just cave in so the phone calls stop. If you haven't been there, haven't had a great time dancing to hip hop beats, or just like to pile on when it's blacks, then you don't know what you're talking about. You're spoonfed by the media and are shackled by your latent intolerant fear. Some might call it racism, but before racism, there is fear.

The police, bar owners, and community are not being proactive. Here is an opportunity for learning and making bridges between the black and non-black communities. It's easy to blame the music- it isn't the problem.

Patrons of hip-hop shows are about to lose what is probably the best entertainment offering around- they should care and be involved in preserving it. The community should encourage this, and support leaders in the black community to overcome the violent element, and work with those in the non-black community to overcome the fear of the young black male.


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