What is up with King Street Lately?

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Should Club Majestic be closed or punished?

Yes
22
52%
No
20
48%
 
Total votes: 42

jjoyce
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Postby jjoyce » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:54 pm

The problem with King St. is that actual tax-paying citizens are put in contact with the after-bar element weekly due to the diversity of businesses and the encroachment of condos.

Have you been to N. Henry and State on a weekend night in the last few years? Imagine 500-plus college kids disgorged onto the street, most of them alarmingly drunk. There's violence, but by virtue of the demographic alone, there are few weapons. Still, kids can and do get hurt pretty badly over there and traffic is affected.

The gun thing is obviously a huge problem. But cops have been calling Henry/State a huge problem for the past several years as well.

Ruggedman
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Postby Ruggedman » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:55 pm

WORD!!!!

spanky
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Postby spanky » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:31 pm

jjoyce wrote:The problem with King St. is that actual tax-paying citizens are put in contact with the after-bar element weekly due to the diversity of businesses and the encroachment of condos.


Ummm, that's a little too black and white.

Tax-paying citizens are part of the after-bar "element". This one just doesn't happen to shoot or stab people.
Last edited by spanky on Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

supaunknown
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Postby supaunknown » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:32 pm

You flippant club-blamers don't seem to "get it". How are the problems that happen out in the public street the club's fault? It's not like the club itself encourages thuggery and/or crime. It's just that current hip-hop culture seems to have a inordinately high number of troublemakers, for whatever reasons. The Majestic appears to have a decent screening process & security for what goes on inside their club. They're drawing huge crowds to these hip-hop shows, so you wanna knock 'em for being a successful business that supplies an obviously desirous commodity? What more are they supposed to be doing to help curb crime goin' down outside? You vague forons seem to wag fingers without offering any realistic solutions. Are you subversively suggesting the Majestic should be closed down?

jjoyce
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Postby jjoyce » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:42 pm

spanky wrote:Tax-paying citizens are part of the after-bar "element".


Actually, I think the problem is that they're not. The people in this city most likely to be out at 2:30 are college students or other young people who rent, rather than own, and are transient residents of the city, if they even live in Madison.

Ruggedman
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Postby Ruggedman » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:44 pm

"
The Majestic appears to have a decent screening process & security for what goes on inside their club. They're drawing huge crowds to these hip-hop shows, so you wanna knock 'em for being a successful
business that supplies an obviously desirous commodity?
"

Yes it appears to be good but it isn't. And no I don't want to knock them for providing a "desirous commodity". I knock them for providing a DANGEROUS commodity.

juanton
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Postby juanton » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:49 pm

If I were an actuarian, the bulk of the math would align with Club Majestic and their current method of operations. Schiavo is pointing his finger at the police, when crowds his club attracts get out of hand. How hard is that to figure out?

And yes, the club should be penalized if the problem persists. The ALRC and Police have to play fair. Way back in the 90's, they played hard ball with the Paramount Music Hall when they had shows that attracted crowds who sometimes got violent. What's different here?

If you can't provide security for events your club promotes or if your promotions put innocent pedestrians in harm's way, then you shouldn't be in the business of promoting large shows.
Last edited by juanton on Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spanky
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Postby spanky » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:22 pm

jjoyce wrote:
spanky wrote:Tax-paying citizens are part of the after-bar "element".


Actually, I think the problem is that they're not. The people in this city most likely to be out at 2:30 are college students or other young people who rent, rather than own, and are transient residents of the city, if they even live in Madison.


I guess I wasn't being clear, you are not correct. I am here to tell you that I (a tax-paying citizen) am, and many, many acquaintances of mine (also tax-paying citizens) are, out at bar time and somehow manage not to shoot or stab anyone.

If you want to speak in terms of "most" or "a majority" I�ll buy into your premise; but as I stated before your position is too black and white, too either/or.

In any case I am not sure what you are suggesting. I agree that a disconnection with the community makes the lack of respect we are seeing more prevalent; however, you seem to be saying that if there were more tax-payers out at bar time they could somehow stop the shootings. I don't buy that.

eastside
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Postby eastside » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:58 pm

supaunknown wrote:You flippant club-blamers don't seem to "get it". How are the problems that happen out in the public street the club's fault? It's not like the club itself encourages thuggery and/or crime. It's just that current hip-hop culture seems to have a inordinately high number of troublemakers, for whatever reasons. The Majestic appears to have a decent screening process & security for what goes on inside their club. They're drawing huge crowds to these hip-hop shows, so you wanna knock 'em for being a successful business that supplies an obviously desirous commodity? What more are they supposed to be doing to help curb crime goin' down outside? You vague forons seem to wag fingers without offering any realistic solutions. Are you subversively suggesting the Majestic should be closed down?


I am a hip hop fan that wants to see the Majestic do well. I used to be a Majestic regular. For whatever reason, there appears to be violence assosiated with large numbers of people congregating outside of the club. The Majestic creates the crowd, they should have the burden of dealing with the consequences. It's not that complicated. Get to know your patrons, get them to respect you, and ask them to leave and not to cause trouble on the way out.

If I round up 500 drunks and put them on your front lawn at 2:30 a.m., should I have to pay for the damage they do? How about if I am being very well paid to bring them there? How about if I bring them to your work so that you have to walk through them to get to your car or your home?

This is not some grand conspiracy against the Majestic. There have been three big incidents in less than ten days on what was previously a very safe street. This isn't Detroit. You should be able to walk home from work without hearing gunshots.

Helping to dispurse a crowd after a show is something that club owners and promoters do all of the time. It's one of the reasons 99 other shows got through the weekend without a police report.

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Postby regnad_kcin » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:33 pm

eastside wrote:For whatever reason, there appears to be violence assosiated with large numbers of people congregating outside of the club. The Majestic creates the crowd, they should have the burden of dealing with the consequences. It's not that complicated. Get to know your patrons, get them to respect you, and ask them to leave and not to cause trouble on the way out.


This is a very good point. If troublemakers understand that their behavior will lead to the hip hop / all you can drink specials being shut down, maybe they'll stop. This goes for the parking-lot-dwellers too; without music and booze, there won't be people to antagonize.

Now that might sound like "shut the club down"-- but it's happened before. In relatively recent history the KK was temporarily closed by the ALRC due to underage patrons. The Paramount / R&R closed after violent incidents, as did Club Hilltopp. As long as Majestic skates by on the technicality that what goes on happens outside their club-- I guess they don't feel at all obligated to convince customers to respect their their neighbors and fellow citizens after hours. It might take a temporary injunction to change their tune.

Why isn't there more pressure on Majestic? You can bet almost any other bar or venue would be more than willing to cooperate with police and city council on a matter such as this. Is Schiavo really that slimy? Or is the "bad news" about repeated gunshots outside your club good for business? After all, that same kind of shit sells a lot of records...

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Postby Dulouz » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:13 am

regnad_kcin wrote:
eastside wrote:In relatively recent history the KK was temporarily closed by the ALRC due to underage patrons. The Paramount / R&R closed after violent incidents, as did Club Hilltopp. As long as Majestic skates by on the technicality that what goes on happens outside their club-- I guess they don't feel at all obligated to convince customers to respect their their neighbors and fellow citizens after hours. It might take a temporary injunction to change their tune.

Why isn't there more pressure on Majestic? You can bet almost any other bar or venue would be more than willing to cooperate with police and city council on a matter such as this. Is Schiavo really that slimy?


There is a lot of pressure on the Majestic. The reality is that Schiavo, far from being slimy, has bent over backwards to work with the police and the city. He has voluntarily added conditions to his license, created a state of the art security system, etc. The other clubs were closed down because they violated the law and city ordinances. The Majestic is not doing that. The city can't just take somebody's property (business) for any reason. It needs specifics. For those unfamiliar with the concept, it is called "due process".

What happens outside the club though is outside the club. It is not, like Hilltop, a private parking lot. It is a public street. As a result, the security staff of the Majestic have little or no authority to act outside of the club. If bouncers remove someone from inside the club it is "security", if bouncers remove someone from the street is is "vigilante-ism" and maybe a host of other civil and criminal charges.

spanky
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Postby spanky » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:44 am

Dulouz wrote:The Majestic is not doing that. The city can't just take somebody's property (business) for any reason. It needs specifics. For those unfamiliar with the concept, it is called "due process".


No one suggesting that the property be seized (nice straw man tough).

(By the way, due process ensures the government will respect all of a person's legal rights when the government deprives a person of life, liberty, or property. It does not, however, (contrary to your implications) block the government from seizing property, just that the proper legal process must be followed in order to do so.)

The Schiavo's on the other hand have a legal responsibility to operate their business based on the standards set forth in a liquor license, if they cannot do so, they stand to lose or have restrictions placed on said license.

The license is a responsibility, not a constitutional right as you imply above.

And finally, letââ?¬â?¢s not forget that not all of the disturbances surrounding the unruly patrons of the Majestic occur outside the establishment. The Central District regularly reports police calls and disturbances inside the venue ââ?¬â?? so letââ?¬â?¢s drop that feeble excuse as well.

How do we (because obviously The Majestic won�t) fix it,
- Staggered closing hours?
- Stop selling booze at 11pm? Music done at 12am Close the venue at 2am?
-Capacity limits, until you can prove that your clientele at a given capacity can act responsibly inside or outside the club?
- Other?

Litaluv
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Postby Litaluv » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:55 am

regnad_kcin wrote:
eastside wrote:For whatever reason, there appears to be violence assosiated with large numbers of people congregating outside of the club. The Majestic creates the crowd, they should have the burden of dealing with the consequences. It's not that complicated. Get to know your patrons, get them to respect you, and ask them to leave and not to cause trouble on the way out.


This is a very good point. If troublemakers understand that their behavior will lead to the hip hop / all you can drink specials being shut down, maybe they'll stop. This goes for the parking-lot-dwellers too; without music and booze, there won't be people to antagonize.

Now that might sound like "shut the club down"-- but it's happened before. In relatively recent history the KK was temporarily closed by the ALRC due to underage patrons. The Paramount / R&R closed after violent incidents, as did Club Hilltopp. As long as Majestic skates by on the technicality that what goes on happens outside their club-- I guess they don't feel at all obligated to convince customers to respect their their neighbors and fellow citizens after hours. It might take a temporary injunction to change their tune.

Why isn't there more pressure on Majestic? You can bet almost any other bar or venue would be more than willing to cooperate with police and city council on a matter such as this. Is Schiavo really that slimy? Or is the "bad news" about repeated gunshots outside your club good for business? After all, that same kind of shit sells a lot of records...




I was working at the Paramount when all that shit was going on. I saw alot of the same thing there that is going on with the Club Majestic right now. There always seems to be one person that ruins it for everybody.
Last edited by Litaluv on Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby dave esmond » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:11 am

spanky wrote:At this point I hope the Majestic continues to turn a blind eye, and continues to exemplify the mantra of the likes Dave Esmond. The longer they continue to deny that they are a factor in this problem the more likely they are to get a swift and heavy handed solution from City officials on the ALRC.



Who's denying they're not A factor? Not me. Not the Majestic.



But I ask again what's the "obvious soulution"?


It's becomg quite clear to me that Madison does not know how to deal with large crowds (see Halloween, Mifflin block party, etc) and really, really does not know how to deal with black people. There I said it. Finally Madison has more then a few black rersidents and guess what? They don't act just like white people. For instance after they leave a club they don't all wander off alone to their own cars and leave. They hang, they mingle, they stop their cars in the middle of the road, they holler at friends across the street. In other words they do things that make white people uncomfortable, maybe even scared.


Maybe we need some help from Chicago or New York cops. Maybe we need to learn a little bit about our new neighbors and not expect them to act just like everyone else. Maybe we should stop being suprised they hang and mingle and make plans to deal with that. ("Move along")


Violence? No way is that acceptable. Property damage? Also not acceptable. Again I ask, what's the "obvoius solution" to these problems? Is it the same obvious solutions they use in other cities or with other large crowds?



So yeah the Majestic is a factor. Of course it is. But as many people keep wanting to say they're dumping 500 drunks on to the street. And ONE of 'em stabs someone. That's always very bad. But it's hardly unique. The last stabbing was outside the KK. There was one at a Green party meeting at the library. Who's up in arms about the Greens or the library not doing it's duty? Shit goes down at the library every week. Ask a librarian. People just don't worry about it the same way.

It's the large number of black people mingling in the street that seems to be freaking people out.

ONE of 'em. ONE, caused a problem. Would most people have even noticed it if the other 499 had just gone home like white people do? I doubt it. It's the large number of black people that are causing the freak out, dispite that fact that 99% aren't doing anything wrong. One problem and the whole crowd is a violent mass? Madison seems to be growing up fast and showing it's true colors. Stop being afrard of the crowd at the Majestic. Be worried about the very, very few people who cause troubles and stop seeing the rest of the crowd in the same light. Treat 'em the same way we'll treat the one or two football and hockey players that are gonna get in trouble/beat the shit out of someone this year. Weed out the bad apples and stop being afraid of the whole tree.

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Postby dstol62 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:29 am

Back in 1982, a music club on State Street called Merlyn's sponsored a "record spin" which attracted a large number of cubans who had recently come into the area. Unfortunately, the weekly event led to several murders at and outside the venue, which then contributed to the club shutting down altogether.

I think you would have to be blind not to acknowledge that a similar course of events could happen here. Is the city supposed to wait for a couple of murder victims before order is restored?

This issue is about public safety. As a downtown resident, I have to walk
past the Majestic area to get home, often at late hours. If the Madison Police cannot guarantee that they are able to control the crowd overflow, the event should be terminated.


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