Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

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nonyuppie
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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby nonyuppie » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:06 pm

jman111 wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:I don't agree with our politicians playing geopolitics with our lives.

Do you understand this to be a new phenomenon? That horse left the barn long, long ago.

It's time we rounded it up and got it back in the barn then. I can't think of anything more important.

We had a good chance 25 years ago and we fucked it up.

nonyuppie
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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby nonyuppie » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:37 am

jman111 wrote:
nonyuppie wrote:I don't agree with our politicians playing geopolitics with our lives.

Do you understand this to be a new phenomenon? That horse left the barn long, long ago.


So the horse left the barn. Are you saying we should make no attempt to get it back? That there is nothing that we can do?

Should we then, for instance, just support politicians based on other concerns even if they support militarism since there is nothing that can be done about militarism anyway? That seems to be the consensus in this forum. I disagree.

Henry Vilas
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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:51 am

Yet you defend Russian militarism in the Ukraine.

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:54 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Yet you defend Russian militarism in the Ukraine.

Since my Ukrainian friend is not here to correct you, I'll do it for her:
There's no such place as the Ukraine. It's a country and it's called Ukraine.

Edited to add: http://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/

Henry Vilas
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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:02 am

I've seen it both says. Wiki agrees.

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:05 am

Wow. Really, Hank?
Ukrainians don't agree and it's their country.

This is a good example of a time where you say, "Oh, I was mistaken. Thank you for the correction. I will get it right in the future so as not to inadvertently offend someone by incorrectly identifying their country's name."

It's pretty clear why including "the" is offensive (as noted in my link), so there's absolutely no justification for sticking to your guns on this, Hank.

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby BobbyB » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:08 am

My neighbor is from Ukraine. It is Ukraine.

I've actually wondered where the "the" comes from. According to the article the Professor linked to above:

“Ukraine is a country,” says William Taylor, who served as the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine from 2006 to 2009. “The Ukraine is the way the Russians referred to that part of the country during Soviet times … Now that it is a country, a nation, and a recognized state, it is just Ukraine. And it is incorrect to refer to the Ukraine, even though a lot of people do it.”


Learned something new, and I can see why Ukrainians are particularly sensitive about it.

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby gargantua » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:10 am

I saw the OP's post appear as a letter to the editor in the WSJ/Cap Times within the past week or so.
As far as supporting militarism is concerned, I don't. But we don't always have a choice. I disagree with staying home or voting for a candidate who has no chance of winning "to send a message". In 2016, the message got us Donald Trump. No thanks.

Oh, and it's Ukraine.

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:16 am

Gambia or the Gambia? Hague or the Hague? United States or the United States? Ohio State or The Ohio State?

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:35 am

What the fuck is wrong with you, Hank?
If you're unwilling to learn and/or be respectful -- I mean, what kind of asshole tells other people what the name of their country is? -- how about you at least shut the fuck up?
Doubling down on being stupidly wrong is a total Trump move, doncha know.

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby O.J. » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:55 am

Seriously, Hank. Remember this conversation next time you get upset when someone says you belong to the Democrat Party.

nonyuppie
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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby nonyuppie » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:28 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Yet you defend Russian militarism in the Ukraine.

I haven't yet defended it but I may have excused it.

It depends, of course, on how you define militarism. Certainly, it is much more militaristic to be militarily involved in countries 5,000 miles way than on your border. In Crimea, Russian troops stationed at the Russian Naval Base in Sevastopol took over Crimea after a U.S.-supported coup overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine. This is defensible.

Crimea has never been Ukrainian except in an administrative sense and it has been the headquarters of the Russian Black Sea fleet for over 200 years. It's inclusion in Ukraine when that country is susceptible to being taken over by an anti-Russian alliance creates an unstable situation that has been improved by its reincorporation into Russia.

Russian involvement in the Donbass is more complicated. There are no unbiased sources of information as to how much involvement there is. Russia has had to deal with thousands of refugees from Ukraine. It is really questionable as to whether the involvement there is is militaristic.

Russia is far, far less militaristic than the U.S. U.S. militarism is the responsibility of the U.S. electorate. Russian militarism is not unless it is directed at us.

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby jman111 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:48 pm

nonyuppie wrote:Certainly, it is much more militaristic to be militarily involved in countries 5,000 miles way than on your border.

Um, what?

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby DCB » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:15 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Gambia or the Gambia? Hague or the Hague? United States or the United States? Ohio State or The Ohio State?


Mexico will pay for the wall!

or

The Mexico will pay for the wall?

Which one sounds stupid? OK, bad example. But still.

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Re: Senator Baldwin divides Wisconsin

Postby gozer » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:45 pm

DCB wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Gambia or the Gambia? Hague or the Hague? United States or the United States? Ohio State or The Ohio State?


Mexico will pay for the wall!

or

The Mexico will pay for the wall?

Which one sounds stupid? OK, bad example. But still.


"the russia wants to eat us alive. the russia's power mad. she wants to take our cars from out our garages"

-- "america" by allen ginsberg, berkeley, california, 17. january 1956, line 135 or so

come to think of it, that is what the post-modern techno-industrial megastate is trying to convince people these days too . . . the russia wants to rule a biggish sphere of influence and preserve its margin of manoeuvre -- no, that is the u s of a's job . . .


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