Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

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fflambeau
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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby fflambeau » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:47 am

They were Johnny Rebs (that's what they called themselves). They willingly and knowingly rebelled against the Union and President Lincoln and they knowingly supported the system of slavery (which many of their families profited from).

They committed treason and now some Neo Nazis want to glorify them?

Sorry, Mayor Soglin did the right thing.

Donald
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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby Donald » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:16 pm

Soldiers go to war for any number of reasons. Some believe in the cause. Others want a payday. Others are conscripted. Others seek glory. Others feel peer pressure. Others have nothing else going on. Yes, they were involved in a treasonous enterprise. Who knows why they joined the cause, or how much they believed in it? We sent al lot of people to Vietnam who didn't believe in that war.

I found an interesting article about the POWs at Camp Randall. They weren't there long because the Union military brass found conditions so horrible and so many POWs dying that they ordered the transfer of the remaining, living POWs to a camp near Chicago. Kind of makes you wonder about "our side" of this conflict as well.

I'd like to know more about the people who are buried here before I get all self-righteous. Someone wrote a book, called "The Boys of Forest Hill," which might give us more of an understanding about who these guys were.

I think it is right to take down the statues if they praise or venerate the cause of the Confederacy.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby you must be joking » Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:48 pm

fflambeau wrote:Sorry, most of these confederate soldiers knew exactly what they were doing. They could have done what lots of people opposed to the Vietnam war did: protest, take to the streets, demand a change in their system of slavery, even leave. They didn't. The entire Southern society/economy was built around slavery (as Gone With the Wind shows). They embraced this.

Mayor Soglin was right to call them out as traitors and people who committed treason against the USA. Don't forget too that one of their sympathizers (who had plenty of support in the South and amongst the army of the Confederacy) shot and killed Abraham Lincoln. You can read about it in Gore Vidal's masterful, "Lincoln".


fflambeau,

A couple of problems with what is being said here.

1. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison all owned slaves. Do we change East and West Washington Ave. to another name. How about Jefferson and Madison Streets? Do we change the name of Madison itself to some other name? How about Jefferson WI, Jefferson County, Port Washington, Washington Island, and so on? What about the names of those places?

2. In "The Root" an online journal by Henry Louis Gates Jr., there is an article dated 3/04/13 entitled "Did Black People Own Slaves?" In this article Henry Louis Gates Jr. says in short, the answer is yes. http://www.theroot.com/did-black-people-own-slaves-1790895436

In a part of this article Gates points out the following:
"In Savannah, Ga., between 1823 and 1828, according to Betty Wood's Gender, Race, and Rank in a Revolutionary Age, Hannah Leion owned nine slaves, while the largest slaveholder in 1860 was Ciprien Ricard, who had a sugarcane plantation in Louisiana and owned 152 slaves with her son, Pierre — many more that the 35 she owned in 1830. According to economic historian Stanley Engerman, "In Charleston, South Carolina about 42 percent of free blacks owned slaves in 1850, and about 64 percent of these slaveholders were women." Greed, in other words, was gender-blind."

3. Also, according to the article, many free Blacks in the South wanted to keep their Black slaves
"Perhaps the most insidious or desperate attempt to defend the right of black people to own slaves was the statement made on the eve of the Civil War by a group of free people of color in New Orleans, offering their services to the Confederacy, in part because they were fearful for their own enslavement: "The free colored population [native] of Louisiana … own slaves, and they are dearly attached to their native land … and they are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana … They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought [to defend New Orleans from the British] in 1814-1815."

These guys were, to put it bluntly, opportunists par excellence: As Noah Andre Trudeau and James G. Hollandsworth Jr. explain, once the war broke out, some of these same black men formed 14 companies of a militia composed of 440 men and were organized by the governor in May 1861 into "the Native Guards, Louisiana," swearing to fight to defend the Confederacy. Although given no combat role, the Guards — reaching a peak of 1,000 volunteers — became the first Civil War unit to appoint black officers."

So I guess the treason you talk of was color blind as well.

4. Black people in Africa sold other Black people to the slavers.

5. Last but not least is the idea by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn that says, “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

All of us are human. All of the Black people who sold other Black people to white people were human. All Black people who owned other Black people were human. We all have that line dividing good and evil that cuts through all of our hearts. Instead of tearing down the monuments, let us all learn from our past that we all have to guard against the evil in our own hearts that can be used against our fellow human beings.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:43 pm

Washington and Jefferson were never traitors who waged war against the U.S., ala R.E. Lee and his ilk. Read your Constitution.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:32 pm

.... nor did they kill Americans for the "right" to keep slaves.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby snoqueen » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:44 pm

Ah, but another of our founding documents begins "When in the Course of human events..."

I'm sure you (HV) can find the rest of it.

We have created bonds among ourselves in our history, and we have also dissolved them. In fact, such a dissolution is the event upon which we were founded.

It's no stretch to guess the Confederates saw their own act of dissolution in the same light: as an honorable and necessary step.

They lost.

History is written by the winners.

But to condemn all the foot soldiers in the civil war as treasonous just because they lost seems ungenerous seeing that a century and a half have passed. We can't easily fix the unresolved civil rights history and issues we still bear, but denying the long-dead soldiers the basic dignity of understanding seems to add to our national burden rather than lessen it.

I think Donald is right and young men (mostly young men) go to war for a great many reasons, reasons he listed eloquently. Not everybody sees the bigger picture or supports the greater cause. Some are simply impoverished and need the money. This is still true today, most likely all around the world not just in the US.

And righteousness doesn't automatically accrue to the winners, as the description of wartime conditions at Camp Randall testify. (One could study Sherman's March to the Sea for another example where moral oversimplification is a risk.)

I make no excuses for the alt-right and their antics in 2017, but I think basic humanity demands we show some appreciation for what sends young men off to war, whether the Civil War or Vietnam or any other. Racism today is not addressed by railing against and calling treasonous the rank and file confederate soldiers of 1865.

I hope once the plaque Soglin is removing in our cemetery is replaced, the new wording remains true to history while offering compassion to the prisoners who died here long, long ago. I think if we consult with our wisest local spiritual leaders they can come up with something appropriate.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:02 pm

snoqueen wrote:Ah, but another of our founding documents begins "When in the Course of human events..."

Present day right wing militias think that gives them the right to overturn our government, if they think it becomes necessary. Ask DMan, if he shows his face again.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby you must be joking » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:48 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Washington and Jefferson were never traitors who waged war against the U.S., ala R.E. Lee and his ilk. Read your Constitution.


Henry,

I think if we ask our British cousins they might have a different outlook on this. After all, we Yanks separated from good King George in order to become America.

Again, I think that it would be best of all of us to recognize that we are human and that human beings have over time enslaved and murdered their fellow human beings. That the line dividing good from evil cuts through the heart of every human being.

People should be on guard to their own passions and feelings. Through the words and deeds of all of us, all of us can decide to tilt the world a little bit more toward Hell or a little bit more toward Heaven. Destroying monuments will do nothing in the way of tilting the world a little bit more toward Heaven.

We should also recognize that even today in America slavery still exists. It is called Sex Slavery and yes it is a multi-billion dollar a year enterprise.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/how-sex-trafficking-goes-unnoticed-in-america/470166/

https://thinkprogress.org/girls-human-trafficking-and-modern-slavery-in-america-65ccbf08523a/


These are only two out of many of the links I found about this. I would imagine that the modern slave in America who is used for and as a sex slave is male or female, black or white and they are held by males or females, blacks or whites. In modern day America gender and race are not a consideration in the use of slaves.

If mayor Soglin wanted to really tilt the world a little bit more toward Heaven, he would direct city officials to do something about the modern day sex slaves that undoubtably live right here in Madison.

But then that would be something more than him just wanting to score political points.

Pathetic!
Last edited by you must be joking on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roy
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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby Roy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:07 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Washington and Jefferson were never traitors who waged war against the U.S., ala R.E. Lee and his ilk. Read your Constitution.

True. However both were slave owners. So you will want to erase them from history forever, so children of the left never have to learn of it.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:22 am

The confederacy has it's place, but when statues erected by white supremacists are being used to continue that supremacy, then it's time they're removed for the sake of all.

Apparently, that's to much like rocket science for neocons like Roy and YMBJ.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:47 am

Roy wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Washington and Jefferson were never traitors who waged war against the U.S., ala R.E. Lee and his ilk. Read your Constitution.

True. However both were slave owners. So you will want to erase them from history forever, so children of the left never have to learn of it.

Who is talking about erasing history so children won't learn from it? Putting those statues in museums will preserve the history, but put them in proper context. School field trips often go to such museums.

In the South, children are taught that the Civil War is actually called the War of Northern Aggression and ignore the fact that the South started it with the attack on the federal Army at Fort Sumter in South Carolina.

Roy, you served in the Armed Forces and took the oath of allegiance. What do you think about Robert E. Lee and other U.S. Army officers from the South who violated that oath and waged war on the Union?

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:11 am

Roy's ability to ignore solutions and find problems instead, so he can remain on the side of the fence that makes him feel good amazes me.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby PaleoLiberal » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:08 pm

Some of the "reasonable" people asking for removal of CSA monuments say the proper placs for Confederate flags and memorials are Confederate cemeteries.

There is a lot to be said for that.

The US government decided to honor the Confederate soldiers as is they had been Union soldiers.

The Madison approach may be oh so politically correct in 2017, but it fails to honor soldiers, mostly illiterate conscripts loyal to their states, who were POWs who died due to the extreme negligence of the administrators of Camp Randall.

All societies honor their dead, especially those who died in war. This treatment of fallen soldiers who have been recognized as the equivalent of fallen Union troops is disgraceful. First no flags allowed to decorate their graves, then no monuments.

Soglin talked of removing symbols of hate. The only hate I see is hatred towards these young men who paid the ultimate sacrifice.

One or two of the posters here seem to delight in dancing on their graves. Disgusting.

Maybe it's because my family had a strong military tradition, fighting in every war from Lexington/Concord to Okinawa. Maybe because my family fought on both sides of the Civil War, and there were still a few bad feelings in the 1950s when my mother married a Yankee, but he was fully accepted by the Southerners.

It is too bad that illiterate farm boys loyal to their states weren't up on the modern theory of 150 years later. But they were brave lads who died of Wisconsin negligence. Madison owes them a lot more respect.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby Cadfael » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:36 pm

PaleoLiberal wrote:...it fails to honor soldiers, mostly illiterate conscripts loyal to their states, who were POWs who died due to the extreme negligence of the administrators of Camp Randall.

That is exactly the sentiment I'd be okay with. I knew conscription was involved and I knew it was possible to buy your way out of it. Less so on the Southern side, apparently, although Wikipedia puts conscripted soldiers at about ten or twelve percent of the confederate army by 1862.

I wouldn't mind it being commemorated that these were young men, many of them forced to fight, most of them unaware of the larger picture, and all of them mistreated by their fellow citizens. Treason it was, but respect for humanity is supposed to be the most important rule to follow everywhere.

Yes, as kids they could well have gone down to the slave auctions just to taunt and torture black kids in their cages, but respect for humanity shouldn't be conditional.

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Re: Soglin orders Confederate memorials removed...

Postby david cohen » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:41 pm

fflambeau wrote:Sorry, most of these confederate soldiers knew exactly what they were doing. They could have done what lots of people opposed to the Vietnam war did: protest, take to the streets, demand a change in their system of slavery, even leave. They didn't. The entire Southern society/economy was built around slavery (as Gone With the Wind shows). They embraced this.

Mayor Soglin was right to call them out as traitors and people who committed treason against the USA. Don't forget too that one of their sympathizers (who had plenty of support in the South and amongst the army of the Confederacy) shot and killed Abraham Lincoln. You can read about it in Gore Vidal's masterful, "Lincoln".


Yeah they could have logged on to social media and made a conscious decision to just say NO to their local draft board...to see the perils of slavery, even if they couldn't afford their own slaves...to know more about the big world around them....fuck, most of these kids couldn't even read, let alone envision some level of self determination outside of Dahlonega or Rome or Frederick or Hickory.


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