Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

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DCB
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby DCB » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:24 am

Be Here Now. Find salvation in the Ice Cream Cone!

butters
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby butters » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:28 pm

you must be joking wrote:Sad, so sad what we humans do to each other in the name of any religion which includes Atheism. The reason I don’t like Atheism is because Atheism is the religion of the State. It is the religion of totalitarianism. It was the religion of Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Mao and a host of other despots.


Atheism is not a religion. Atheists do not worship any deities. It is not an organized system of beliefs. There are no ceremonies, rituals, or specified rules. There is no call to action, set of duties, or world view. It is simply the lack of belief in gods because there is zero evidence for them. That is it. Anything more than that is not atheism; it is something else.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao did not commit atrocities in the name of atheism. You are either confused, or you are a liar.

Hitler was a Christian, btw.

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:39 pm

you must be joking wrote:After studying a great deal of history...
Either you're a liar or you've been reading some particularly odious "history" written with regard more to an agenda than actual historical facts.

Anyone who has actually studied history knows full well that the Nazis were not Socialists, no matter what the name of the party was. In actual fact, of course, socialists were rounded up -- and often executed -- along with intellectuals and other "undesirables" very early on in the reign of the Nazis. The term "National Socialism" was just another example of Nazi propaganda. The Nazis were facists. To pretend otherwise is pure idiocy.

Atheism isn't the religion of anything. Atheism is not a religion.

And while true that many totalitarian states were anti-religious (the Nazis surely weren't, however), none of their atrocities were committed in the name of atheism. As opposed to a gazillion murders which have been committed in the name of religion. There's a world of difference between atheism, which is a lack of belief in gods, and being told by a totalitarian government that you are forbidden to worship gods which you do believe in. And again, pretending otherwise is pure idiocy.

you must be joking wrote:From the Egyptian’s to the modern times by the Nazi Socialists; the Communists of Russia, China, North Korea, Viet Nam, Cambodia, and Cuba, all worshiped their heads of state as God. These regimes have shown that once man becomes his own God, then the most powerful one among them, the leader of the state becomes God.
This is just nonsense which you've either made up whole cloth or copy and pasted from someone else equally ignorant. There's a vast gulf between hero worship and/or a leader being revered as the embodiment of a state and deification. I can only conclude from the drivel you just spewed that you have zero "knowledge and understanding of history" as you claim.

gozer
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby gozer » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:17 pm

hitler was a pseudo-neo-pagan cherry-picker whose god was the worst kind of 19th-century junk science idea about race . . .

Detritus
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Detritus » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:35 pm

gozer wrote:hitler was a pseudo-neo-pagan cherry-picker whose god was the worst kind of 19th-century junk science idea about race . . .

So you agree with butters, then.

Igor
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Igor » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:00 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:As opposed to a gazillion murders which have been committed in the name of religion.


Just to be clear, the most deadly war that was religious in nature was the Thirty Years War, which generally doesn't crack the top 10 historically. (even there, the last 30-50% of the war was Catholic vs. Catholic) So, while certainly there have been wars related to religion, it turns out that humans are just violent in general.

As to Hitler, he was raised Catholic, but did not go to church as an adult. There were Nazis that were atheists, ones that favored pagan worship, ones that thought the churches should be closed, but only after they had won the war, and ones that were religious.

Henry Vilas
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:10 pm

Plenty of Catholics were also Nazis/Fascists.

Image

gozer
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby gozer » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:24 pm

Detritus wrote:
gozer wrote:hitler was a pseudo-neo-pagan cherry-picker whose god was the worst kind of 19th-century junk science idea about race . . .

So you agree with butters, then.


well, the atheists i know seem to have thoroughly thought through their position, have normative ideas about certain things, and do make definitive statements about the supernatural and praeternatural (viz, the lack thereof) so i think it is a system of belief a step short of a religion. 99 per cent of them are very reasonable about the golden rule vis-à-vis not imposing religion on others; people have told me that the one per cent makes up a visible minority in f f r f. i am not convinced one way or the other. the worst they have been guilty of is not knowing how to pick one's battles all the time.

separation of church and state is very important in the united states and in my experience most rabbis, priests, islamic leaders, and a majority of ministers will tell one so.

as far as hitler and mao (whose god was dialectal materialism) and company, i would opine that generally it is pragmatic to encourage philosophies which take into account human fallibility and the equal potential for good and evil -- they can speculate on whether there is a supreme being or not -- or opt not to, i'm not sure it makes a difference.

Prof. Wagstaff
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:41 pm

Igor wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:As opposed to a gazillion murders which have been committed in the name of religion.


Just to be clear, the most deadly war that was religious in nature was the Thirty Years War, which generally doesn't crack the top 10 historically. (even there, the last 30-50% of the war was Catholic vs. Catholic) So, while certainly there have been wars related to religion, it turns out that humans are just violent in general.

Agreed that humans are just pretty shitty to each other for lots of reasons (although I think we'd disagree about which wars are "related to religion", since you're clearly not including any part of WWII, and I most definitely would.) But I purposely used the word "murder" because that neatly encompasses massive movements like The Crusades as well as the occasional "God told me to" murderers. But the total number of people murdered by Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot (none of whom were atheists in the true sense of the term anyway) comes out to something like 15-20 million, whereas the number of murders committed in the name of religion throughout history is more in the neighborhood of 800 million. So while I agree with you that there's really not much value in attributing murder to religion (or lack thereof), it's always baffling to me that those who would do so to indict atheism are staggeringly wrong in their assessment.

Igor
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Igor » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:21 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:although I think we'd disagree about which wars are "related to religion", since you're clearly not including any part of WWII, and I most definitely would.


Well obviously there is the Jewish portion of the Holocaust, which IMO was racial than religious, at least in the views of the Nazi leadership, if not that of the average citizen. Others (including you, presumably) may disagree. Unless you are referring to something else?

gozer
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby gozer » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:04 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Plenty of Catholics were also Nazis/Fascists.

Image


betwixt mit brennender sorge and a bunch of other things, the roman catholic church pissed off the nazis enough to have the latter try to start their own church to replace the r c c in the greater german reich.

DCB
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby DCB » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:54 pm

Can we drop all the Nazi references ? Its offensive and insulting even to those of us who don't have direct family connections.

The work by the FFRF, even the petty "no hotel bibles" stuff, doesn't oppress anyone. It just feels that way to the Christianists who are offended at having to tolerate someone else's religion. Like this LA public school teacher
When informed that C.C. was a Buddhist and therefore didn’t believe in God, Roark allegedly responded, “you’re stupid if you don’t believe in God.”

Read more at http://wonkette.com/540248/helpful-loui ... SX3cE2k.99

david cohen
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby david cohen » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:14 pm

My point exactly DCB. Comparing the FFRF's actions in this case to anything remotely related to The Holocaust is stupid...

Igor
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Igor » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:17 pm

david cohen wrote:My point exactly DCB. Comparing the FFRF's actions in this case to anything remotely related to The Holocaust is stupid...


I think the thread degenerated into the "this is why religion is bad" meme - I'm not sure anyone compared the original issue to the Holocaust. (admittedly, I have not reread the whole thread from the beginning)

manoletters
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby manoletters » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:48 pm



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